I'm not so sure. I'm quite able to sympathise with my mother-in-law or hope that no harm comes to people who've hurt me - but I know I haven't really forgiven these people. Just because I hold a grudge against someone for something they did doesn't mean that person doesn't deserve goodness and happiness. For me, I believe forgiveness is a journey. It's a process that could take days, weeks, or years. Forgiveness, to a certain extent, doesn't make any logical sense because anyone who needs forgiveness does not deserve forgiveness. Those who deserve forgiveness do not need forgiving. So it's not about whether a person deserves it - it's purely by grace. The funny thing though is, I've found it is sometimes those who have been hurt the most who is also most capable of forgiveness. I remember watching a documentary on British POWs in the hands of their Japanese captors. There were 3 of them being interviewed, and of the 3, 2 of them say they harbour no resentment against the Japanese. They've forgiven those who tortured them. Corrie ten Boom famously forgave the Nazi officer who tortured her and her family when they were in a concentration camp during WWII - she wept with him and shook his hand. I've heard stories of rape survivors who say they have forgiven their rapists. Another documentary on a serial killer I watched once - the parents of the victims had the chance to say something to the murderer before he was led to be executed in the US (unfortunately I've forgotten the names), and one father took the stand, and said simply three words: "I forgive you." And those were the only words that got any reaction out of the killer - he broke down in tears. I don't have that sort of grace in me - not quite yet - and I've often wondered how these people could do it. There's something lovely, and full of peace, about it and I cannot forget these stories of forgiveness. But it does seem that forgiveness is possible, seemingly especially for some of the most tragic things. I'm not really an advocate of celebrating the deaths of evil people - somehow I feel it reveals an ugliness in us when we do, that we're no better.
Doesn't that wear on you throughout your lifetime? I enjoy wielding the ability to forgive people quickly, because it takes the weight of anger and bitterness away. How long does it take you to forget after your resentment?
Eh, about a month. Once I've decided internally that someone isn't worth my wasting my time and energy stewing over, I forget about it in a month. And again, it depends on the severity of the crime and if they're truly sorry and want to repent. I'm all for forgiveness and redemption, folks. Just that I won't waste my time with people who clearly aren't repentant and don't want to make the attempt to be better people. @Mckk - Those are very powerful stories. It speaks to their inner strengths that they're able to stare at their oppressors/person responsible for their misery in the face and forgive them.
For me, forgiveness depends. Small things can be forgiven, others can be forgiven for a time provided the offender changes their behavior and atones. Sometimes, trust is irrevocably broken though. It could perhaps be gained back, but both parties have to agree to take the years needed to do so and it may be impossible; you saw your childhood friend almost everyday and had free time to hang out but as adults, there's less time and perhaps more distance. I'm bad at forgetting though. Sometimes, I'm disappointed in someone and I recall past times they did something similar. I can still work with that, but as soon as the other person believes I have bad intentions then I don't bother. Once they do that, I start questioning if something they did was meant to hurt me so I stop believing in them. At some point, I have to walk away and usually, they remember how well I treated them.
At what point does forgiveness become naivete? It seems like there's a bit of a pro-forgiveness slant to this conversation, and I'm not sure if I share that value. I mean, for little things, sure, forgive away. And don't let anger and resentment ruin your life, fair enough. But full forgiveness? If someone hurts me a lot, deliberately or through carelessness or whatever, I don't think it's a good idea to just forgive and forget that action. As far as I know, I've never been cheated on, but if I were? Well, if it were a one-time thing and my partner confessed right away and took serious steps to avoid a similar situation ever arising again, okay, I'd think about forgiveness. But if he cheated again, or if he had an ongoing affair and lied to me about where he was, etc.? That'd be it. The trust would be gone, and for me, it wouldn't be a virtue to forgive him and go on as if the cheating hadn't happened. Our relationship is done, now. I don't want to live a bitter, angry life, but I don't want to spend any more time with a lying cheater, either. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
I agree, @BayView , there's only so many times you can forgive someone before you start looking like you're just making excuses for someone's wrongdoings. Also, in my view, there is a line that, when crossed, makes you completely unforgivable in my eyes. Take the examples @Mckk listed. Were I a Holocaust survivor and I met the guy responsible for the misery of myself and my family, the only good compassionate thing I could do to him is to not beat the shit out of him with all my rage. Because wouldn't that then make me look like a bad guy? Beating up a 90+-year-old man for crimes he committed against me 70 years ago? In any case, no, I wouldn't forgive him. I'd tell him to take his walker and drag his derelict, decayed ass out of my sight. Even if he were remorseful and tearfully sorry for what he had done, I would think it'd be in my right to not forgive him. How could I? Saying "I forgive you, let's hug" isn't going to undo what he had done. Forgiveness is awesome, so is redemption. If someone were sorry and wanted to change their ways, then they should be allowed that chance. If their former victims decide that no amount of good deeds will get them to forgive their former tormentor, then that's well within their rights. No one should tell them to forgive someone they don't want to forgive. That said, this can very easily become a prison for the former victim as the resentment builds and builds until everything in life is now governed by that one event that happened in his/her life. So perhaps, in some ways, forgiveness is really just the person deciding that while they still want nothing to do with the perpetrator, while they still hate them, etc, they're not going to let their own resentment ruin their life. They can choose to keep going forward despite whatever they endured. Also, as Wrey said, there are so many variables, an infinite number of scenarios. A third-grade boy stealing cookies from the class cookie jar and shoving an earthworm into a girl's face is on a wholly different level than the former SS officer apologizing to the people he once tortured and almost killed 70 years ago, and different than Twin A murdering Twin B in a fit of passion that he later regrets.
I tried to think of situations where someone's hurt me and whether I've forgiven them, and yeah, I think if I can be around them without bringing it up, I have forgiven them. I was just thinking about an ex-friend of mine; we were BFFs from elementary school to junior high, until she decided she didn't want to be friends anymore. No explanations whatsover. It was strange 'cause we had been so close. Have I forgiven her? Yeah. Have I forgotten? Nope. I think I can actually forgive quite easily. I can stop holding shit against people and stop bringing it up. But if it's been betrayal, I won't trust them again, and I won't even try to go back to the way things were. I haven't forgotten the friendship break-up, so I could never be her friend again. And yeah, I still do draw some sick satisfaction from seeing her mundane FB updates. I knew she had huge dreams, but now she's just the ordinary, doughy person she swore never to become. So it's actually quite easy to forgive her.
To bring this somewhat into the writing world, there's a prominent e-publisher, Ellora's Cave, that's run by a pretty eccentric woman who apparently married a murderer while he was serving his time. At some point after that she contacted the victim's widow and daughter (as I understand it), asking for them to speak to the parole board or whatever and try to help the murderer get early release. The general consensus in the writing community is that she was WAY out of line to do that. She was asking way too much forgiveness.
There's a big difference between forgiveness and stupidity. For instance, if someone murdered a family member, I would forgive that person. Would I allow that person to roam the streets? No. He could easily kill someone else. He committed a crime, and he should either be locked away or get the death penalty. You can use common sense and forgiveness in tandem. Besides, how can we not forgive others when we need forgiveness so much ourselves? We've all done bad things (ranging from taking candy bars to seriously hurting someone's feelings), and we all need to forgive others' trespasses. A life without complete forgiveness is a dark and hopeless one.
If it's any consolation, I am guilty of doing the same exact thing (elementary to junior high), and I feel very terrible about it even now. Junior high/ high school is a hard time. You're no longer shielded in childhood, but still a far cry from adult. Then of course there's your puberty and everybody else's. If there's one time period people should be forgiven for, it's their teens.
I don't understand how you can forgive someone and still think they should be killed. Isn't that the opposite of forgiveness?
Can I ask what your motivation was? I think because of the vulnerability of youth it's particularly difficult to forget something like that. But forgiving is not a problem.
You can forgive, yet not forget. Like @Masked Mole was saying. We have so much to be thankful for, we were forgiven of terrible sins we have committed. We should be able to forgive fairly fast, without holding a grudge. Sure, someone takes something, or just abandons you, do you forget that? No! You spent time with that person, and probably got fairly close. But do you forgive them? Yes. Matthew 18:21-35 is a great place to look. Also, Matthew 16:14-15 For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgiveyou. 15 "But if you do not forgiveothers, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
I think for some us the teenage years is like being dropped into a desert highway. Suddenly there are no more rules-you make them as you go. Some people band together(and this is admirable), others swap teams because they think it's advantageous to do so (in high school this would be the equivalent of dropping old friends for higher status friends and this is common) and some of us just need to cross that road alone (I also hit my nihilist phase very early). If she found new friends, she probably didn't think you were cool enough for her. If she hung about by herself, she probably needed a lot of alone time like I did. I am sure part of her regrets losing a close friend.
No. It's not. The punishment of the crime protects people. Forgiveness does not eliminate future responsibility.
In addition, I want to make it clear that I wouldn't be taking personal revenge in that scenario I created. The justice system would determine his punishment, not me.
But the death penalty has been proven to not be a deterrent. That is, it keeps that individual person from committing any future crimes, just like it prevents that individual person from committing and future good acts. So how does the death penalty reconcile with forgiveness? And I think the "I'm not doing it myself" line is a cop-out. If you approve of the state doing it, then you're saying it's the right thing to be done. I just don't see the forgiveness in killing someone.
The death penalty itself is a totally different discussion. You can throw life in prison into the scenario, if you choose. It doesn't really change anything. It's absolutely the right thing. I was just saying I'm not doing it personally to prove that my any personal bias would be absent. Your personal responsibility is to forgive. You also have a responsibility to keep a known killer away from possible victims. It's simple logic.
Even without deterrence, forgiveness and punishment can be two different things. If I'm thinking of the right philosopher, I think it was Descartes who views punishment as necessary due to the autonomy of the individual. It is a duty in response to a transgression, and has nothing to do with whether any individual has forgiven a person their crime. He would have rejected deterrence as an immoral justification (I happen to think the latter point is right if that's the only justification someone has).
So you are asserting a positive responsibility to forgive. Like, someone who doesn't forgive someone else is being irresponsible? Can you elaborate on that? To whom do we owe this responsibility?
