?

1 is most innocent, 10 is least.

  1. 1 (most innocent)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 2

    1 vote(s)
    2.6%
  3. 3

    1 vote(s)
    2.6%
  4. 4

    4 vote(s)
    10.5%
  5. 5

    8 vote(s)
    21.1%
  6. 6

    4 vote(s)
    10.5%
  7. 7

    4 vote(s)
    10.5%
  8. 8

    8 vote(s)
    21.1%
  9. 9

    2 vote(s)
    5.3%
  10. 10 (least innocent)

    6 vote(s)
    15.8%
  1. Wreybies
    Offline

    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    18,891
    Likes Received:
    10,077
    Location:
    Puerto Rico

    How innocent are you… really?

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Wreybies, Oct 9, 2009.

    So, I was just on a very typical triage call and one of the very regular questions that gets asked is about drug use. Sometimes they just ask in general, sometimes they get into detail about certain drugs if the symptoms require a more precise answer.

    As I was listening to the list and the poor fellah with the pain in his belly was answering in that tone of voice that says, “What?! I can’t believe you are even saying that word out-loud!!” I thought to myself if I were asked the same list of questions to the tune of have you ever, I would have to lie a number of times in order to give all no answers.

    Which made me think about my personal ideal of innocence (in general, not just about controlled substances) in comparison to my actual level of innocence if I really put a hard look to the records in the Wrey Vault.

    Funny how ideals and reality hardly ever match, aye?

    I figured I would create a scale to represent where you feel your level of innocence lies. I am sure we will all have our own reasons for why we choose what we choose, so there is no sense in trying to make something all inclusive. For certain, someone's description will be left out.
     
  2. Mercurial
    Offline

    Mercurial Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Messages:
    3,453
    Likes Received:
    117
    Interesting prompt. You always do have interesting questions.

    I gave myself a four. I know a lot about a lot of things that wouldnt necessarily make me innocent, but I suppose the daddy's little girl / strict Catholic upbringing keeps me out of most "trouble" that some people might find themselves in.

    Of course, I am still young. ;)
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. CDRW
    Offline

    CDRW Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2008
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    27
    To quote Moist Von Lipwig "Is it that I am a bastard, or just that I'm very good at thinking like one?"

    I can answer "no" to all the important questions, but it takes some real effort to shock me as well.
     
  4. Pallas
    Offline

    Pallas Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    New York
    I must say I have been a good fellah, in terms of drug abuse(non existent), work and study ethic, and general decency in everyday living, I must give myself a 3 or less in fact, though some would disagree, they are mostly in the minority, haha.
     
  5. Agreen
    Offline

    Agreen Faceless Man Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,143
    Likes Received:
    67
    Location:
    Canada
    This is interesting. I wasn't quite sure how to approach it- if it was by what you have to see or hear to be shocked I'd probably be a 9 or 10. If it was for something like a criminal background, I'd be much lower, like 1. And with drugs, again I guess it would depend. If marijuana didn't make me ill I'd probably put up a decent score there- I've tried things, but the only recreational drug I use with any regularity is alcohol. In thinking it over, I've decided a 7 is me.

    As for how others perceive me, it depends. I'm clever and polite enough to get on people's good sides, but I also frequently get shot dirty looks whenever I wear my Bathory or The Black Dahlia Murder shirts. I can also be that guy when it comes to being a jerk about the Toronto Maple Leafs, especially when I lived in Ottawa.
     
  6. hiddennovelist
    Offline

    hiddennovelist Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,256
    Likes Received:
    161
    Location:
    Fabulous Sin City
    Hmmm...Joel picked 3 for me, but I picked 5. I've never done any drugs or smoked, and I have to admit, I'm pretty innocent when it comes to things I've done, but I've been exposed to a lot of things, so I figured that had to count for something...

    Very interesting question, Wrey.
     
  7. madhoca
    Offline

    madhoca Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,527
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    the shadow of the velvet fortress
    I suppose I can say that I've been there, seen that, but NOT actually DONE that. Does that make me innocent, not at all innocent, or a voyeur? I gave myself 6.
    I've always had too much natural caution and ambition for full-on self-destructive tendencies, I guess!
     
  8. Xeno
    Offline

    Xeno Mad and Bitey Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    4,777
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Stratford-upon-Avon, England
    I won't even pretend that I'm innocent. :p

    The only things I'm innocent in is 1. Still a virgin and 2. Don't smoke, drink or do drugs.

    But still, there are more than enough things I have done that make me an 8.
     
  9. jonathan hernandez13
    Offline

    jonathan hernandez13 Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    5,040
    Likes Received:
    63
    Location:
    Mount Vernon New York
    hmmm...fascinating

    Uh, there is a place where morality and experience meet

    A baby when it is newly born can be said to be pure and innocent because it cannot even commit acts we morally object to, and even if they could, we would excuse them to a great extent

    Unfortunately, this world is not perfect, and neither is the universe - humans that much less

    There is something very terrible about this, the baby needs to learn - like all animals it will learn from its environment, baby will learn that fire will burn and that a bee can sting. Pain is an excellent teacher, some knowledge is inherited biologically (like the instinct to use the potty).

    Luckily humans do not have to relearn eveything that our ancestors did, because at some point they invented languages both spoken and written, and in addition to the things we learn as individuals we can share and pass on acquired knowledge.

    A good parent knows to teach baby, but what baby learns is limited by the skills of the teacher and the intelligence of the baby.

    In a very great way what we regard as innocence is ignorance, as baby becomes child they acquire vast knowledge and have gone beyond realization of self and realization of reality. They are a part of the world they live in and are active and participant, they play and form friendships and often ask questions that sound silly to adults. This is a form of ignorance, however despite the negative connotations associated with the term ignorance the process of asking questions is a very powerful tool.

    By asking a question as a means of acquiring information one bypasses the need to perform costly trial and error actions, costly in terms of time, energy, and emotion. Unfortunately, even with the answers a child gets they are limited in their understanding by the quality of their education and their ability to attain and retain new information.

    In a large part this blissful and excusable ignorance is innocence because by this point the child understands consequence, but the child does not always understand which action has which consequence. There are many why's and but's and if's, but all the while the child is questioning the child is still reacting to the environment.

    It comes as no surprise that children are curious and playful and energetic, all are condusive to learning, as is found throughout the animal kingdom. However, it comes as no surpise that children must and require some form of additional instruction. If left on their own, they will, in their excusable ignorance, act on their own curiosity in a way that may harm them or others.

    Children are scolded, and corrected, and punished. This is a form of instruction and conditioning, it adds to the child's concept of consequence. It molds and forms the child's concept of right and wrong, and has a built in mechanism for reinforcement. When they are "good" they are, or should be rewarded. When they are "bad" they are or should be punished.

    Problems arise here rapidly, for what one society calls good another may call taboo, and what one adult deems discipline another may deem abusive. Again, the quality of this additional form of education is only as good as the teachers and the means by which the child learns. Peer development factors in, along with the first teacher, the parent, and the penultimate teacher, the environment. There is also extragenetic information in the form of texts and language in the form of technology beyond text. The child is a sponge, but what the sponge absorbs reflects not only what its properties are but also the nature of what it absorbs.

    Child becomes an adult, and this is not a smooth or a sudden process. Many societies have rites of passage specifically because of this. In societies that have grown from and past the hunter-gatherer cultures have not evolved past the psychological need to define what this point is. There is no concensus, it varies from individual to individual. But all people have some form of passage ritual (prom, bar mitzveh, catholic confirmation), for rituals are pervasive in humanity.

    As noted, every individual develops at a different rate, and as we have already seen some have factors affecting the quality of their lifetime of instruction or preparation. The rites are not for the benefit of the individual per se, rather they are for the benefit and convenience of the people. The tribe will need another hunter and urges the boy to become a man in the same way that we need new members to join the work force.

    The way in which adolescents are groomed for their roles is closely watched and trained, especially in modern societies prior to graduation from high school, where they are prepared for facing higher learning and labor, or even the military (which has strict rites of passage and trial).

    This is a critical part in the life of the person, because they are reaching a point where they are shedding their innocence. They are formally announcing that they have accepted their new roles, they are no longer allowed to claim ignorance. They have been trained, educated, and indoctrinated from birth and are now held accountable for their actions as all adults would.

    In some form or another, they are put to trial - the trial may be in the form or trying to survive in boot camp, or a hostile work environment where they must earn wages to eat, or challenged by college professors. All of the skills that have been learned are now put to the test, and how well they cope and adapt determines their success.

    However, as we have already seen, the world is not perfect. Some individuals have learned faster than others, or have seen things that others have not, or as they develop ideas from differing viewpoints. In as many ways as one can admit their own personal tastes and wishes one sees that life is not as simple as what their lifetime of instruction suggests. Human remembers again the penultimate teacher, they are reminded because they see it every day: the environment.

    What is the environment? By definition what we observe, so every tree and snowflake, every peer and person makes up this vast cosm that we observe. Assuredly there are things beyond our field of vision, but we know this specifically because we have tested that hypothesis and found it to be true through more of our tests and trials. It does no good to call something unobservable our environment, even if it may be, because we selfishly define reality by the limits of the senses. In very literal terms we do not have to see something to know its real. But when we can touch and taste and feel something it somehow seems even more real than real. Experience is the best teacher.

    There are aspects of our societies that transcend physical reality, and they were invented by humanity. In addition to the very real things which we can make and hold, like a hammer and chisel, there are things which we cannot directly observe. Morality is an invention and tool just as any other. The quality of that tool, because it is not physical, is only as good as how well it is perceived and interpretted. And just as two individuals may dissent on matters where trial and error cannot tread, there are differing opinions.

    In our wisdom we can see the future, we can predic it based on what we have seen in the past. In the past we have seen what can be accomplished when people work together, and we have seen what can happen when groups gnash their teeth at one another.

    It is perhaps a result of the cosmos being imperfect in all its majesty that civilizations have failed. It is a credit to their wits that they have made their records and contributons, and left us with monuments to remember them by. We have learned from them a lesson in necessity and compromise. All individuals compromise by consenting to what the society as a whole has deemed as good. And in their wisdom they have erected laws which are based on what they deem as good.

    Transgression is frowned upon because it invites chaos, the individual action of one free idea, as clever or perverse as it might be, welcomes rebuttal. It should be noted that what the society arbitrarily decides upon to be the norm may not only be a taboo to an outsider, but even morally repugnant. There was a time among most cultures when wealthy people were not only allowed to own slaves, but encouraged.

    As all societies praise their pioneers they all make examples of their demons. Somewhere in the middle all average people, who have accepted the consensus as mutually agreed upon by all, nod and meander on as the eccentics come and go.

    Innocence is nothing more than one of many examples of how an individual fails to see (and as a result of not seeing not conforming) with the big picture. Some individuals do see the big picture and deliberately choose not to conform, that is called rebellion.

    Innocence is most often episodal and brief, or in the case of certain segments of the population, particularly among children, it often seen as charming or reassuring. It is a reminder of a time when we were, if for very briefly, not expected to march to the same beat of the machine's drum.

    There are also among adults brief episodes of innocence. Not purely in the strict literal sense of the word in legal terms but also descriptively. There are areas of society that are taboo, and because they are not explored by the common good, are difficult to get proper or adequate formal introductions to. Many drugs are frowned upon, and as there are fewer sources of instruction the person relies on peer instruction typically as well as the penultimate teacher of experience.

    It should aslo be noted that just as what societies mutually agree upon what should be deemed acceptable and moral, societies mutually create and agree upon the laws that glue their society together.

    When the person chooses to transgress they are most definetly not innocent, but rather very guilty. One may caim ignorance, but it would not be easy, and one could claim innocance, but it would be a challenged position in the courts.

    Innocence is excused episodes of ignorance:p
     
  10. Pallas
    Offline

    Pallas Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    New York
    wow, Jonathan prepared a dissertation on the meaning of innocence. I am plum out of PhD's though, haha.
     
  11. Henry The Purple
    Offline

    Henry The Purple Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    1
    Innocence went out the window the moment I hit adolescence. Nowadays, I am often oblivious, but rarely 'innocent'. :p
     
  12. Wreybies
    Offline

    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    18,891
    Likes Received:
    10,077
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    What I find interesting about the answers is that there are more votes in the poll than there are posted replies.

    Almost always the other way 'round.

    Intriguing.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Pallas
    Offline

    Pallas Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    New York
    No one has voted a 1 yet. Very disconcerting....

    I should get one of the Spock cuts, retro.
     
  14. Rei
    Offline

    Rei Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    7,869
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    Kingston
    Yes, interesting, Pallas. I just noticed that nobody has voted 1. I voted 5 for no particular reason.
     
  15. Carmina
    Offline

    Carmina Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,909
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Woodland California
    I took a 500 question "purity test" and received a score of being 67.6 percent pure. Whatever that means.
     
  16. Cogito
    Offline

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    35,935
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    It means you're 32.4% naughty and nice, of course! :D
     
  17. Carmina
    Offline

    Carmina Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,909
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Woodland California
    naughty enough to show I know I know how to have a good time...nice enough to think I can be shown something new
     
  18. mammamaia
    Offline

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,316
    Likes Received:
    1,014
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    what exactly do you mean by 'innocent'?

    without knowing if you mean 'of a crime/misdeed' or as in being 'naive' or 'unknowing' i don't see how anyone can rank themselves...

    i'm going to guess you meant in the 'knowing' sense, and will rank myself that way, but i do think you need to be more specific, for us to know if the rankings are on target, or not...
     
  19. ChimmyBear
    Offline

    ChimmyBear Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    In the arms of the man I love at home in NC.
    So...*clears throat*...I could I could say I am innocent, I could say I am not. The truth of the matter is I am experienced in life. Does that make me higher or lower on the scale? Honestly it comes down to personal choice. In my heart I would have say, at my age, I am right where I need to be. My time on this Earth has broken a good bit of my innocence, my naivety.

    I have had some of my innocents taken from me and I could say a lot about that but I wont. It really doesn't matter anyway...I am strong in my identity. Some of my innocents was lost at my own doing and the cost was high. Would I go back and change any of it...*shrugs*...life is a one shot deal, we make our choices. When I lay my head on my pillow at night, even if my choice was silly or stupid, I had the guts to live and make one...hopefully, I will have learned better by the morning. ;)
     
  20. Xeno
    Offline

    Xeno Mad and Bitey Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    4,777
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Stratford-upon-Avon, England
    I wanna know who put the two tens. :D
     
  21. Wreybies
    Offline

    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    18,891
    Likes Received:
    10,077
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    No, no. I decided not to specify on purpose.

    I think that innocence is such a personal and emic concept that it would be far too exclusionary to give a definition.

    The purpose of the question is introspection, wherever that might take the individual.
     
  22. Torana
    Offline

    Torana Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    9,659
    Likes Received:
    128
    In my teenage years, I would have been a ten. I did drugs, I drank all the time, I did a lot of stuff that I could have been arrested for and should have been. I went through a really bad few years and I can't believe I'm still here today... luck I guess.

    But since I turned 18 and grew up a bit, and even more so now, I would say that I would now be more around the lower levels somewhere. I don't do anything illegal at all and I devote my life to my children and I'm never violent or nasty towards anyone (though I do complain a lot about my neighbours, but I'd never be nasty to them). I wouldn't say I am a 1 -3 though. I really am not sure what I'd be now-a-days. But I know I am a far better person than I was when I was a teenager.

    I guess I'd be around a 4 or 5, because I have gone back an apologised to my family for everything that I put them through when I went through my rebel stage... shame on me for those years!
     
  23. Sabreur
    Offline

    Sabreur Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    At the combination pizza hut and taco bell
    Eh. I'm in a long-term, monogamous relationship. I've never tried drugs (including alcohol) and never intend on doing so.

    I enjoy my life otherwise. I voted five because I'm as guilty as anyone else of nothing particular.
     
  24. Xeno
    Offline

    Xeno Mad and Bitey Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    4,777
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Stratford-upon-Avon, England
    Sorry, but I found that hilarious. :D
     
  25. Sabreur
    Offline

    Sabreur Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    At the combination pizza hut and taco bell
    I'm quite dashing
    and of an enviable height
    and I've been known to be
    quite funny;
    in a certain way and a
    certain light.

    ;)
     

Share This Page