Novel How to write a novel?

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by sprirj, Dec 6, 2015.

  1. A.M.P.

    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Contributor

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    1 - Open Wordpad
    2 - Write
    3 - ????
    4 - Publish on Wordsmash
    5 - Profit
     
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  2. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I don't know who "they" are but this has not been my experience at all. Like in the YA discussion, either you think people are saying something they are not, or you don't fully understand what they are describing.

    Skilled writing is not either only subjective or only a single monolith of rules. Skilled writing doesn't work that way.

    A skill is being able to write a realistic character, being able to pull the reader in, being able to describe the setting in a way the reader feels they are there.

    The fact teenage girls like dragons and girls with hot boyfriends can mean that just those elements alone are the draw and they carry the weight for average or otherwise less than stellar writing skills.

    It's not about strict rules or formulas, but it doesn't mean there aren't skills good writers have and inexperienced writers can't learn.

    Maybe you don't remember learning how to write or maybe you didn't notice it as you learned it. I've had the advantage of learning how to write more recently so I know what elements I've learned and where I still have work to do. I know what skills I lacked that I no longer lack.

    I didn't get subjectively better. I gained specific skills.
     
  3. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Not sure where you get this from but again this has not been my experience.

    I will say for a writer that hasn't gained basic skills (because we can allways get better) you can't do it strictly from a how to book. If you weren't born with the natural ability to write, you need feedback from writers that recognize what you work lacks and where it shines.

    You have to put your feet in the water if you want to learn to swim, and you need feedback because there will be all those things you don't know exist so you won't see that your work lacks.

    Or you need to find the expert in between.

    From where I stand, that is exactly what a story is NOT.

    You are closer, maybe not fully articulating what needs to be there, but closer.
     
  4. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Dude, I'm not going to keep having this conversation with you. Please don't tell me I don't understand something just because I disagree with you.
     
  5. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I understand it, but in addition to not agreeing, I asked you to clarify who "they" were that you seem to think believe "there's only one way to write a story?" I don't believe many writing reference books say that. In fact, I don't recall seeing a single one and I've looked at a wide variety.
     
  6. A.M.P.

    A.M.P. People Buy My Books for the Bio Photo Contributor

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    Note to self: create the first book that instructs my way is the only way.
     
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  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    No, you didn't ask me to clarify. Before you start, again, telling other people they aren't reading properly, read what you wrote. You didn't ask me to clarify, you just told me I wasn't reading or understanding properly. (And, honestly, even if you had asked me to clarify? Given the number of times you've ignored my repeated requests to clarify your terms, I don't think I'd have been under any obligation to respond just because you asked. Hey, I have an idea! How about you ask me the question, not just once (which you haven't done yet) but, like, five or ten times? How about you bold the question, and rephrase it, still in bold, and then? Then I guess I'll just ignore it? Is that how this goes?)

    Anyway. In my experience, it's the very nature of a how-to book to tell people how-to. And I don't think that's a good way to learn to write. You're right, I'm basing this mostly on my own experience, but you're basing your opinion mostly on your own experience, so at best we're equal on this, right? So that means we disagree. It doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong, and it absolutely doesn't mean I don't even understand what's being said.

    Get your book finished, get it edited, get it published, get some real reviews for it, and then come back and tell me how to learn to write. Until then? I'm not sure why you consider yourself an authority on any of this. You just have an opinion, like all the rest of us.
     
  8. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Always planned on it.

    As for opinions, if a person can make a supporting case for their opinions, that's what I look for in judging the value of that opinion. A successful writer may not give good advice to writers. Like Orson Scott Card, the way I read his writers' guides, all he's done is compile various lists. There's something missing in those lists.

    The guy that runs my critique group, on the other hand, has incredible insight when he reads people's work. And his own work is excellent. But he's waiting for a big publishing house interest and so far he's had Penguin request one full manuscript but they didn't publish it. There's no question he writes quality stuff.

    So he's not published, but that's not how I measure his skill as a writing advisor. I measure it because I've seen the advice he's given writers of all skill levels and there's no question his advice reflects his substantial skill to read a piece and tell you how to make it better. And when you come back and the next chapter is better, he tells you how to take it another step forward and another.

    To say being published gives one teaching credentials and not being published doesn't, misses whole pools of potential teachers while giving credit to some who should be writing but not teaching.
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    You're right - you could get published and still give terrible advice! ;)

    But, more seriously. Sure, some people give good writing advice, others don't. Do you have any reason to believe that you're in the "gives good advice" camp? Or, alternatively, any reason to believe that your advice is good across the board? I can see it being useful to someone who thinks like you, and creates like you. But that doesn't mean it would work at all for others.

    And, yes, the same is true for me. I think it's important that we both acknowledge that.

    What I was really getting at with the "get further along the process" idea was trying to sort out an idea of what the old "it works for me" standard is, here. You're more pleased with your writing now than you used to be, and that's great. And, I guess if you believe in a fixed scale of writing quality, that would be all you need.

    For me, I'd need to see the reactions of my readers before I knew whether something new I tried was actually "working for me". It only works for me if it ends up working for them.

    So, again, we're back to the old thread. And I'm not going to go any further along that road with you until you answer the question you won't answer, so... I guess we're done?
     
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  10. Tea@3

    Tea@3 Senior Member

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    You guys have tired me out here! I need to lay down now... ;)
     
  11. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    This is a very interesting post, and certainly not everybody will agree with you ...especially the people who make a living writing How To books on writing! :)

    I think I agree with you on many of your points. Using these books as a blueprint for how to write your story—before you write it—is a huge mistake, I feel. Not only does that flirt with formula, but I think it can suck your creativity away and make you worry too much about 'mistakes' —which can result in writing that feels flat and uninspired. Or maybe they make you try to incorporate things into your story that really shouldn't be there, or twist your characters around to make them more this and less that.

    However, they are VERY helpful to read after you've written. You know your first draft isn't perfect, and these books can help you see why.

    I know I learned a lot from quite a few of them, and had many eureka moments based on something they suggested or made me aware of. Once I had written my story in first draft form, I had something to work with and my initial burst of enthusiasm has been duly set down. Then these books came into their own, for me.

    They make you aware of all sorts of writing issues you may not have known about before you started. How dialogue can be clunky (and how to fix it.) That repetition of unusual words can be jarring to the reader. That what you thought was emotional writing was actually melodrama. That your pacing may be erratic and not appropriate to parts of your story. That your transitions can be clumsy and confusing to the reader, unless you orient the reader to the changes. Things like this. That huge chunks of what you've written don't really contribute to the forward movement of your story. In fact, the concept of 'forward movement' might suddenly hit your brain as something you'd not really thought about before. The tips in these books can be applied during the editing process, and are worth trying out, if they make sense to you. And in the process, you painlessly learn your craft.
     
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  12. Raven484

    Raven484 Contributor Contributor

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    I just want to start by saying I love this site. Everyone here, I can definitely say, is passionate about writing. Most sites and forums I have been on really suck. Most of the writing is garbage and the stories are a bore.
    To me, story is everything. I am not writing to gain recognition or to make huge amounts of money. I am writing for the people who know me. I want them to enjoy a good story and know it came from me.
    The how to books to me are a little helpful. I wasn't before, but now I am a great believer in outlining your plot. Other than that, they basically all say the same thing.
    Even the best writers of our time write garbage. Stephen King probably started hundreds of stories and put them down for one reason. The story sucked.
    You are always going to have grammar issues, you will always have times when you are too descriptive, and times when you are not descriptive enough.
    To some, a sculptor of a greek god is the meaning of life, to others its just another rock.
    If it was ten years ago, I would not be writing. With the ebook and independent writer revolution taking place write now, is the only reason I picked it up again.
    I am not college educated, and my writing shows it a little. I have a better than average vocabulary which helps. But now anyone can publish. And the only thing I can do is tell a good story. When I give chapters for beta reads, I couldn't care less about the grammar. I will take care of that after I get a professional editor. What I want is an honest opinion of the flow I have created from the story. If I get a review of this was good, but there was a lot of grammar mistakes, I blow it off. I want to know what you think of the story. That's why I write now.
    Just make sure your beta readers are not your mom. I go to the local library and ask random people what they think. It works well for me and I get great input.
    I think most established writers put out these how to books just to meet the demands of their publishers for work. Do you think Stephen King wants you to become the next great horror writer, I don't think so. I think they also suffer from being insecure in their own writing and want new writers to look at them as being successful.
    If I had a successful novel, no way would I be writing a how to book. I would be working on my next story. If writers wanted advise, I would give it to them at a book signing after they bought one of my books. Even then I would probably lie to them.
    When I give an opinion of a story written on the forum, it's either I like it and want to see more, or I hated it and this is what I did not understand about their story.
     
  13. IlaridaArch

    IlaridaArch Active Member

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    I like to implement the very same I did over the gym, when someone asked for guidance. So lets act a bit. I am the pro over the gym, you are the one asking help after wasting time for couple of weeks.

    The secret formula - just do it. See it for yourself and learn from it. Trial and error, trial and error.

    I could give you 'the best' weightlifting program out there, what I have been using for years. It might not suit you, because our bodies are different and react differently to the stimulation in the muscles. But you should definately try it out and see what there is for you. Maybe you learn that certain drill fits you very well. Maybe other drill for shoulders didn't feel good, but tryout this barbell row to keep the rear shoulders in shape.

    You don't squat? Try it out, it builds the core muscles and supports the body throughout - maybe it even helps with other exercises.

    -------------

    I think you got the point. You can find those How-To books and see different methods for writing. Just remember to analyse what works for you and take it into your writing process. You keep doing this and in-time you have mastered the process. You have created your own way.

    We are all different. It took me many try-outs to find a way to outline my plot, before I felt comfortable doing it. It's all huge work and constant learning.
     
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    The problem with writing, though, is that we don't really have many "pros over the gym". If I want big muscles, I can easily look for someone with big muscles and ask for their program. But writing is more subjective, and on boards like this one, quite a bit more private. I don't think I've ever seen any creative writing from a lot of the people who are offering advice on creative writing round here.

    I agree with your conclusions, really - just not sure about the analogy!
     
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  15. IlaridaArch

    IlaridaArch Active Member

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    Oh I see why it might seem shady/bad analogy.

    The main point in it is just that whomever you ask about it, it's just their personal method and the possibility of it working for you is rather small. We might not have those pros in such numbers, but I think with writing, you really don't need it.

    At least, every single successful writer out there has gotten the all-mighty question; "What are your top 3 pointers for the aspiring writers out there?"
     

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