1. Kincaid
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    Kincaid Senior Member

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    Human nature

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Kincaid, Feb 18, 2007.

    I had a guy of some funny religion tell me that humans are good by nature. I usually don’t argue with people about their religious beliefs, because I don't want to be disrespectful, but I had to call bullshit on this one.

    I’ve been around enough people to know that humans are “evil” by nature.

    Anyone who has children, or has been around children knows that: You don’t have to teach a kid how to lie, or be cruel, or be selfish…these are things that come naturally without any effort.

    But you do have to teach them how to be truthful, you do have to teach them to be respectful, how to be nice and share.

    What do you think?
     
  2. Robert
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    Robert Banned

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    'Good' and 'evil' are both natural.

    Cheers,
    Rob
     
  3. Frost
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    Frost Contributing Member

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    What Rob says.
    We have both in us.
     
  4. Myst
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    Myst Active Member

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    The "Good" in me: Kids are buggers.
    The "Evil" in me: Kids are assholes.

    Really...the line between good and evil isn't very simple anymore.
     
  5. Wader Go
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    Wader Go Member

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    I don't think that good or evil are attributes that we're born with.

    As with all animals, we're born with the instinct to survive, and although the manner of survival has changed over the last million years, what we deem as good or evil can be traced to it.
    A child lies because they view it as the best way to protect themselves, not to be malicious.

    It is only as we get older that we consciously choose how to utilise this survival instinct, be it to work hard and earn money to provide for ourselves and our family, or to stab a guy and take his wallet.

    These differences in thought are the result of every last event that has happened in our lives.

    In my opinion, people are not born good or evil, but rather moulded into one, the other, or both by the course of their life.
     
  6. Robert
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    Robert Banned

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    All people are born with the capacity for good and for evil, because basic human nature encompasses both. What consitutes good or evil behaviour depends on viewpoint, it's not absolute.

    Cheers,
    Rob
     
  7. E-bow
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    E-bow Banned

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    Humans evil? Evil is relative. There you must be evil to naother human being. Therefore more accurately the question asks if humans naturally desire to hurt one another. Well its funny children need to be taught to tell the truth, all the while you lie to them, as does the rest of the world. And even if they never experienced any lies, they understand the punishment for telling the truth.

    The truth is parents don't know how to raise children, the majority of parents raise dysfunctional children. This has been going on for eons. Which is why for eons humans have been asking the same questions over without progressing anywhere.

    I could go into it, but it would take too long. I've already emptied my load on many forums, including this one. But in short humans are dysfunctional creatures. They are insane, which is why they seek to hurt others in order to get what they want. What is it they want? Freedom from their own underlying current of pain. Often masked in an outwardly projected desire. Done.

    ~E-bow
     
  8. elfdragonlord
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    elfdragonlord Member

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    I think all humans want love and most humans would rather live and let live than stir up a whole load of unnecessary trouble.

    This is certainly the way that people are before those general desires for peace and tolerance get twisted by life.

    This makes humans intrinsically 'good'

    On the other hand, all humans have a bunch of very selfish instincts that evolution and survival of the fittest favoured.

    I don't know whether I'd call this 'evil' - I think it's just the way that things are (are animals evil?)

    But there is clearly capacity for both good and evil in human beings. It is also worth bearing in mind that the terms 'good' and 'evil' were invented by human beings to try and make sense of the world we live in. They are very human-centric concepts and really very subjective too.
     
  9. Ferret
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    Ferret Contributing Member

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    Humans aren't anything by nature, we just choose one thing over the other...
     
  10. mammamaia
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    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    unfortunately, 'by nature' the human male seems to be aggressive and prone to violence... the human female, to nurturing and peaceful collaboration... biology plays a big part in this...

    as all know, even the procreative act is a more or less [too often much more, than less!] violent penetration of first, the female body by the 'weapon' provided on the male one, and then penetration of the ovum by the sperm... so, with beginnings like that, how can the male human not be expected to be inherently prone to other acts of violence?
     
  11. Frost
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    Frost Contributing Member

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    Because that same sperm has to penetrate the ovum and may end up female, and therefore 'not violent'. The last statement was a little contradictory, the rest seemed ok though.
     
  12. mammamaia
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    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    ....sorry, but i fail to see how this:

    answers this [note words in italics]:

    ...btw, the sperm itself does not 'end up female'... only the fertilized ovum may... so, all things considered, i don't see anything contradictory in that last statement of mine... anyway, i'm glad you were able to see reason in the rest of my opinion...

    hugs, m
     
  13. Max Vantage
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    Max Vantage Banned

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    Wtf!

    What kind of sexist rubbish is this? Do you get out much? Not likely by the looks of things. I have seen many a female act worse than men. No doubt you’d have a typical convenient response blaming that on men as well.
    In case you haven’t been keeping up with current events (obviously not in your delusional world) higher numbers of reported crime are committed more and more by women. It won't be long before women catch up with men.
    And a lot of them are becoming more and more heinous in nature. And quite frankly, I can't wait for the numbers of crime commited by men and women to catch up with each other. Maybe then I wouldn't have to splutter so f-ing hard every time I see this utter insanity!
    The cause is seldom biology. It's usually societal. You know that word "societal"? It's a place that exists in reality!

    “Violent”? “Weapon”? There’ such a thing as rape, then there’s such a thing as passion. Familiarise yourself with the differences before amazing us with your retarded philosophy. This is the same type of vitriolic shit perpetuated to demonise men in the eyes of women.
    The act of penetration is to create offspring. To people (rather than animals as you obviously see everyone...unless they're female) it’s also as a means to express feelings from one to another. Other times it’s purely for fun. Who are you or anyone else to pass judgement on other people’s sexual business or even assume the position that you know more than you do about the very nature and process of procreation?
    Maybe you should spend some time getting some education by reading up on human biology. Then you won’t be left to your own devices with this laughable and absurd rubbish.

    As a male who absolutely hates this type of sexist garbage, the times when I’m mostly prone to violence is in the presence of idiots like YOU with this crap! I’m absolutely staggered with this blatant display of sheer arrogance. I thought I was bad, but you are pathetic.
    What you are stating is that "violent" penetration creates a violent/aggressive male. But the same "violent" penetration doesn't in a female. Frost was right in calling you up on your contradiction because it was one.


    (Once again: )
    So what would the likes of you call an abortion? “Considerate about not wanting to bring an unwanted baby into a violent world created by men”? Or some other rubbish excuse to kill a baby? If anything of your misguided, backward outlook on men is anything to go by then at least we have the decency to be aggressive with someone able to defend themselves in their adulthood rather than kill someone still in the womb.

    I wonder if you’d have a convenient excuse for all those (who today are in the majority) who use abortions purely as birth control.



    mammamaia, do us all a favour: stop thinking! You're obviously no good at it.
     
  14. ariella
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    ariella Contributing Member

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    Max that was a bit harsh, we all have our own opinion on things in life and we should be allowed to express them without being abused for it.
    That last comment you have stated is quite nasty and I think that mammamaia has every right to voice her opinion without people attacking her for that.
    I know that any female can be just as aggressive and violent as any male, I have been witness to some pretty horrendous actions from females.
    I know it is unfair for people to go out and say that males are one thing and females are another totally different and only males are aggressive and violent when it is untrue.
    But still I do not go out and go off about it, I very calmly and quietly add in my own opinion.

    I am sorry if this post offends you Max or anyone else, but I don't think it is right to attack people based on their opinion on things when this thread was obviously started up for a discussion about the topic o human nature and to get everyones opinions on it.


    Ariella
     
  15. Max Vantage
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    Max Vantage Banned

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    The topic was about human nature in general. What maia's kind usually do is use it as a means to throw angst against ONE group because of prejudice they have with them. Would you be so quick off the mark to defend her if the comments were about an ethnic group?

    Now I know you and maia have gotten to be friends, so any further comment on this is sure going to be a waste of my time. Just know that I no longer waste my time with diplomacy concerning certain types of idiots who should learn to live in today's world.
     
  16. Robert
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    I agree with Max's observation that Maia's post appears to stem from prejudice on her part. It appears to, but whether that's actually true or not only Maia knows. Also, who knows what events in Maia's experience might have produced such prejudice, if that is indeed what it is.

    Men and women are both capable of evil, so I don't see what can be gained by turning this into a discussion about aggressive males.

    Aggression has probably been a pretty effective survival trait over the years. In the kinds of society we now live in it can bring more problems than it solves.

    Cheers,
    Rob
     
  17. Vroom Vroom Daddy
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    Vroom Vroom Daddy Member

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    Evil and good are opinions and nothing else. What I consider evil, such as killing another person, someone else can consider justice. As for nature all you have to do is look around and see that all of the world is set up in a kill or be killed mindset. Cute and cuddly cats kick with their back legs in play so they can practice disemboweling prey. Female wasps lay eggs in live hosts so that their babies can eat their way out (hows that for female brutality?). Dogs bite throats to suffocate prey. Plants use poison to protect themselves from being eaten by slowly sickening or even killing other creatures. Christmas mistletoe sucks the life out of the very trees it grows on. All of these acts are considered "evil" by humans but have been going on for thousands of years before humans ever had invented a soap box to shout from.
    And as for MAMMA's view point I agree that she has the right to it and even to express it where she wants but I consider it a little hypercritical. First a sperm isn't a man any more than an egg is a woman, they are cells, no better than my hair cells. Actually they aren't even that good since they only have half my DNA. Secondly, if you're going to throw rocks you should know that on third to on half all pregnancies start out as twins but the mothers body decides which one will survive and absorbs the other one.
    And lastly, please stop equating ALL sex with rape. Rape is a crime (which I consider in my imperfect human morals as evil) sex is our nature, DNA, and god (if you so believe) demanding that we continue the species.
     
  18. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    Well said Vroom Vroom.
     
  19. ariella
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    ariella Contributing Member

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    Hey hold on a minute there Max, you are assuming here that me and maia are friends when you have assumed wrong. No offense intended maia.
    I apologise if my post has gotten on your bad side, was not my intension at all.
    I know what she said was out of place ok, I was just stating that some of your comments were a bit harsh is all. I don't agree with her comments, personally I think the only person I have agreed with so far is Vroom Vroom Daddy.


    Ariella
     
  20. Frost
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    Frost Contributing Member

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    Interesting thread, over all.
     
  21. zerobytes
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    zerobytes Contributing Member

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    Haha - I agree with Frost. And what an interesting twist it has taken. On the whole I would probably side with Vroom. Honestly, Good and Evil are semantics. Words that we use to represent things that are different to each of us unless we create a clear definition of what good and evil are. Without that we are just going to go about arguing that my view of evil is different than your view of evil. SO, here's my take on it. Everyone is born knowing what is 'right' and 'wrong' and we judge good and evil either on actions or intentions. So are you the kind of person who prefers good actions with good intentions (but often with poor physical results), evil actions with good intentions (better results but more enemies), good actions with evil intentions (you get what you want and the rest of the world are suckers :D), evil actions with evil intentions (you can have ANYTHING physical in this world that you want, but you pay a high price for it - no one trusts you, and you can't really find companionship because you hurt (or will be hurt) by anyone on your same level). To answer this dilemma I would recommend the following moral quiz - it's rather enlightening.

    http://www.personalityquiz.net/test/robinhood.htm

    good luck solving this one,

    zb
     
  22. Frost
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    Frost Contributing Member

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    The Sheriff, Maid Marion, Little John, Robin Hood
    You claim to be a realist or even a cynic, but you are more emotional, romantic, and truthful.

    Men: Although you are by no means inhibited, your amorous adventures are as much a matter of fantasy as fact.

    Women: You have been hurt in the past by men, or one man in particular, and will probably let it happen again.

    This combination represents 3% of total, 3% of men and 3% of women


    That was me.
     
  23. zerobytes
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    zerobytes Contributing Member

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    Robin Hood, Little John, Maid Marion, The Sheriff
    You are a moralist with conventional ideas, which some people would call old-fashioned.

    Men: You probably consider yourself a fair-minded man in a world which falls badly below your standards. Your inhibitions and sense of guilt are in the way of your happiness.

    Women: Unlucky in love? Perhaps you hope for too much in a man. Be a realist, not a romantic.

    This combination represents 5% of total, 5% of men and 5% of women

    That was me.
     
  24. Torana
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    Torana Contributing Member Contributor

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    a very informative thread indeed.
     

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