Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
    Offline

    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    2,319
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    Music Room #3

    I am an unorthodox feminist

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Duchess-Yukine-Suoh, Mar 20, 2014.

    I am an unorthodox feminist. I believe in equal rights for all, and will work to achieve that goal, but other than that......

    • I do not like math.
    • I do not like science.
    • Computers puzzle me.
    • I want to enter a typically feminine profession.
    • I am in a typically feminine profession now.
    • I do not place career achievement as a high priority, as long as I am making enough money to live comfortably.
    • I do not care about the Bechedel test.
    • I believe that not every movie that doesn't pass said test is anti-women.
    • I do not like building things.
    • I am not physically strong. So, yes, I will need someone to help me, probably a man.
    • I do not like sports.
    • I want to get married someday.
    • I like the mall, perfume, rom-com manga, and things like that.
    Yes, women in Syria should have the right to drive, and all girls should be able to go to school. I just don't like math.

    //hysteria breaks out among the masses.
     
    Mckk and peachalulu like this.
  2. ChickenFreak
    Offline

    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    8,967
    Likes Received:
    5,491
    I don't see that those make you an unorthodox feminist at all. Being a feminist doesn't mean emulating men, or embracing only left-brain pursuits, or rejecting traditionally feminine interests, or rejecting relationships with men.

    Edited to add: I'm a feminist who owns eighty bottles of perfume.
     
  3. vera2014
    Offline

    vera2014 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2014
    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    66
    I love collecting perfume too. I'm curious, what are your favorites?
     
  4. ChickenFreak
    Offline

    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    8,967
    Likes Received:
    5,491
    Ooh! Ooh!

    Just the other day I was saying that the ones I'd rush out to buy if my whole collection were destroyed are:

    Chanel No. 19 extrait (I fail to appreciate the other strengths.)
    Aftelier Cepes & Tuberose
    Bois 1920 Sushi Imperiale
    Shiseido White Rose
    Parfumerie Generale l'Eau Rare Matale

    I was really surprised that the reel-them-off-fast stopped there--though there are dozens of others I could list, they just don't come out quite so fast.
     
  5. thirdwind
    Offline

    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,351
    Likes Received:
    2,891
    Location:
    Boston
    Sweet. Now I know what to buy my girlfriend for her birthday. :D
     
  6. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
    Offline

    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    2,319
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    Music Room #3
    All mine are Bath and Body Works, but one was a special collection and sold out, so it's pretty rare.
     
  7. ChickenFreak
    Offline

    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    8,967
    Likes Received:
    5,491
    Perfuuuuuuuuume!

    For what it's worth, the site Basenotes has a ton of discussion on perfume. (No, it's not mine. In fact, I rarely hang out there any more; I seem to be temporarily focusing on other hobbies.) Including Bath and Body Works scents.
     
  8. vera2014
    Offline

    vera2014 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2014
    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    66
    Cool. I know someone who has a lot by Chanel--it smells very classy. That Coco has style. I’m not familiar with the others. I like Tuberose. My grandmother wore Shiseido's Zen.

    My top favorites are:
    1. Chocolovers by Aquolina
    2. Midnight Fantasy by Britney Spears
    3. Hard Candy by Hard Candy
    4. L by Lolita Lempicka
    5. Pink Sugar by Aquolina
     
  9. Lewdog
    Offline

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Messages:
    7,530
    Likes Received:
    2,825
    Location:
    Williamsburg, KY
    You build stories?
     
  10. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Women should feel free and comfortable being the most girlie girl they want to be. Feminist (the ones I know, and myself) applaud the fact women find feminine things positive. Like @ChickenFreak says
    A typical feminist, in my mind, finds traditionally female qualities and pursuits have high value but are sadly undervalued. The need is for those things to be given a higher value, not for women to give those pursuits up.

    The nursing profession is very much traditionally female. I'm proud of my profession. But it should not be discounted and yet to many uninformed people, including some women, it is. But I'd rather contribute to promoting my female associated profession than changing to something else.

    At the same time, women don't want to be excluded or their pursuits and interests valued less if they don't choose traditional female roles. But that doesn't negate the fact they also want those traditional female roles to be valued.

    I do like math, is that a bad thing?

    Women are seen as "bossy" for doing the same things a man is seen as "assertive" doing. Have you seen the new "don't call it bossy" campaign?

    Women’s History Month : I’m not “Bossy”... I AM the Boss

    I Googled "Ban 'Bossy' campaign" and the first page of hits are nearly all anti-ban bossy sites. What's with that? I'm aggressive and the same behavior in a man makes him assertive. Fuck that! The campaign has an important message, yet look at the nearly instant backlash.

    Which brings me to my next point. You recognize women are oppressed in Syria. I assume you know that oppression is widespread in many countries. The point of the Bechdel test is not to condemn every movie failing the test as anti-feminist. The point applies only to those movies that fail the test for no good artistic reason. That women are invisible in the media contributes to the fact they are undervalued in the world. One might argue the media reflects society or one might argue the media influences society. I would say it doesn't matter, what matters is the media has the ability to influence society. So let's use that tool. The bechdel test is a means of holding the producers and artists accountable, putting their feet to the fire, waking them up to the missing elements that should be more prevalent in the movies. The bechdel test is a wake-up call. It brings a serious issue previously unnoticed by the masses to the surface.

    That's what some of us are doing as writers. If I do anything that significant, bringing an invisible thing as important as the bechdel test has done into the light, I will have succeeded.
     
    Mckk and chicagoliz like this.
  11. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
    Offline

    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    2,319
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    Music Room #3
    Yes, but is that really building? I mean like, I can't make a dresser or anything.
     
  12. Lewdog
    Offline

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Messages:
    7,530
    Likes Received:
    2,825
    Location:
    Williamsburg, KY
    Building things and creating tools is what helped human beings evolve. You have to quit pigeon holing the term "building" to just bedroom furniture. Try branching out to dinner tables, couches, and maybe even a lazy Susan.

    I'm not sure what Susan they named that piece of furniture after, but man she must have been pretty damn lazy.
     
    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh likes this.
  13. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
    Offline

    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    2,319
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    Music Room #3
    The whole thing about how some women discount it, right there.

    No,I just don't like it and never have and never will.
    Cool campaign, and yes, I can say that I've been discriminated against, not even for being assertive, but for participating in the first place!

    I have some problems with the Bechedel test, and I'll argue that it's not the only way to measure the portrayal of women. I even invented my own test!
     
  14. KaTrian
    Offline

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,566
    Likes Received:
    3,563
    Location:
    The Great Swamp
    Or stereotypical men, considering a lot of guys hate sports, are confuddled by science, don't care about career achievements, or can't build or fix anything. Could it even be more prevalent nowadays? Sometimes I do wonder whether it's the environment that makes humans act in a certain way or have a certain look, and if so, when the sex that's in minority enters that environment, do they end up emulating the dominating sex or does the environment simply change them? Probably both.

    For example:
    There is one female instructor in the boxing school I frequent, and she's already morphed into what we might think is a stereotypical bro with short hair, brash flair, a thick instead of curvy body, and low voice. Another lady I once sparred with was half-way there. She already had the shoulder walk of a dude even though she wasn't all that muscle-bound. When we shook hands, she offered hers in a manner that made me instantly think of guys (kind of like this brash, looping movement, it's difficult to explain).

    I don't know if it´s the sport there that makes men and women act in and look a certain way, or is it because the sparring/competing side of it (the side that hurts) is dominated by guys, so the way they act affects the way the girls who enter the sport act, ie they start to emulate the men's behavior. I don't think it's that simple though, but just wondering...
     
    jannert likes this.
  15. jazzabel
    Offline

    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    4,273
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Really, you are just a feminist, like the rest of us girls. Somehow, the patriarchy usurped the goal of feminism, which is equality in the society and eyes of the law for all, into 'something men hating, hairy, fat lesbians want, but what they really need is a man to show them who's boss' and the rest of rape threats thinly veiled as disgusting objectification.

    It's a classic tactic of demonising, misrepresenting and ridiculing the opposition in order to make it less relevant. Sadly, in our patriarchal society, which includes patriarchal domination of the media, schooling and political discourse, coupled with noticeable absence of women at most decision-making positions, the lies and myths surrounding feminism are better known to the ordinary folks than the actual definition and facts about feminism. The more patriarchal the society is, the more dirty word 'feminism' is.

    So rest assured little one, you can love manga and pink lipstick, you can choose to be a housewife, or a chef, or a doctor, you can be and like whatever you want, as long as you are interested in equality for men and women alike, you can call yourself a feminist, without reservations :)

    @KaTrian : It could be anabolic steroids though, they'd facilitate a physical change as well as behavioural.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh and jannert like this.
  16. shadowwalker
    Offline

    shadowwalker Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,299
    Likes Received:
    851
    I don't know what an orthodox feminist would be. IMO, a feminist wants equality of opportunity for all, males and females, and mutual respectfulness. Feminism did get a bad name, unfortunately, because of the extremists - but that's true of any social movement, and there are still women out there who want to blame men in general for all of society's ills. You'll also find women who put down other women for wanting the more "traditional" things; it's as though they're afraid women actually making those choices will put "The Movement" back decades. But then those are the women who give feminism a bad rep.
     
    jannert and chicagoliz like this.
  17. chicagoliz
    Offline

    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,295
    Likes Received:
    815
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    From dictionary.com:
    fem·i·nist
    [fem-uh-nist] Show IPA
    adjective Sometimes, fem·i·nis·tic.
    1.
    advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.
    noun
    2.
    an advocate of such rights.

    OR,
    to quote a famous suffragist, Rebecca West --
    "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people."

    Plain and simple. Nothing "radical" about being a feminist. It shouldn't even be "nontraditional." It's really something that all decent men and women should be.
     
    Fullmetal Xeno, Wyr, KaTrian and 2 others like this.
  18. T.Trian
    Offline

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    1,449
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    That's a fair assumption, but in this case, I believe it's false; competitors are tested around here and would get caught if they used anything illegal and both ladies are still in the competition circles (neither professionally though).

    That being said, I believe it's simply some sort of... social conditioning? Meaning that a person is apt to pick up traits and qualities they encounter a lot in groups and activities they enjoy if they want to be associated with that group or hobby, be it certain kind of behavior, speech patterns, fashion sense, or what have you.

    Another thing that I think might affect this is confidence / pride: when you have gotten your ass kicked six ways from Sunday and you've given some licks yourself, you start to feel like you can handle yourself. That can be a huge confidence booster. There are some tough people out there who mask their toughness under a mirage of frailty. Then there are tough folks who hide a part of it, and, lastly, there are those who flaunt it in a harmless (e.g. shoulder walking, the handshake Kat mentioned etc) or a bad way (e.g. intimidating others on purpose, throwing their weight around just because they can etc).

    The thing is, I don't see much sex-related in that. When you got broad, muscular shoulders and upper back, the shoulder walk can creep in by accident; sometimes you have to consciously avoid it or hunch your shoulders if the situation calls for a meeker appearance. When you are used to rough physical contact, the things we face every day (bumping into people in crowds, shaking hands etc) feel like nothing, so sometimes you don't even bother to avoid them. Looking people in the eye and standing behind what you say, refusing to let people walk all over you (be it in an office or a bar)... I don't think that has anything to do with being a man or "manly."

    I think it's just that because of the long, unequal past between the sexes, men had something akin to a monopoly on that kind of confidence. It's only in the recent decades / years that women have started to embrace the more physical side of life (e.g. combat sports). I've met some fiercely competitive women, so I know women possess the capacity for the desire to improve themselves physically, to gain new skills, to put them to the test against others, so it's not a male trait, but a human one. It's only because men have been controlling that facet of civilization for so long, keeping women out, that people associate things like boxing and wrestling with men instead of physical, competitive people.

    Thank heavens, we're moving in a better direction although we're still far, far from anything even close to equality. E.g. in our boxing group, 99% of the time Kat is the only girl there. Sure, every other boxing group in our club is full of women (about 50/50), but since in our group we actually spar, i.e. you get hit and you have to hit others, the sudden absence of women just shows that the prejudices are still there and not only among men: any woman who wants to join the group, is more than welcome to do so (Kat is one of the most hardworking students there, esp. considering she regularly trades punches with guys 20-60kg heavier and 10-25cm taller than her, so the instructors like her), but in this case, I think a lot of the fault does lie among the women themselves: they still think that it's something brutal and less-than-desirable. Or they have decided they can't do that for whatever reason (not wanting to compete is not really a reason because its not mandatory anyway). Of course, that's okay too, it's not for everyone, but I kinda suspect that if some of them were a bit more open-minded, they'd give it a go, like it, and stay.

    A friend of ours is a perfect example of a "girly" girl in this respect, i.e. she's into fashion, cosmetics, hates sports etc. but once we talked her into joining us in the krav maga basic course, she loved it. The same thing happened with shooting; she wasn't really into guns, but once she got to shoot one, her first question was when she could do it again.

    That tells me that quite often the absence of women in male-dominated acitivites is a combination of things: men who don't want women there (although, according to my observations, around here, that's actually very, very rare: most men want women there and the ones whose girlfriends / wives join the group are usually the most envied of all) and women who are so prejudiced, they have already decided they won't like it without ever giving it an honest try.

    Granted, there are men who perpetuate the prejudices women have against some activities, but fault lies in both camps and I'm seeing less and less men against women's participation (although sometimes those rare individuals can be among the loudest, twisting the image to look like they represent the average hobbyist even when the truth is something else entirely).
    It's my observation that because those prejudices are mostly the fault of our male ancestors, it would help if more men actually proactively invited women to try out the hobbies in question, showing them that they are welcome, that they won't be ridiculed or shunned because of their sex, and that most men won't suddenly see them as repulsive swamp things, but as cool, brave women. At least that's the case around here; I'm sure there are countries / areas where the situation is less... workable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
    jazzabel and jannert like this.
  19. Garball
    Offline

    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,846
    Likes Received:
    1,331
    Location:
    S'port, LA
    I am an unorthodox feminist seeing as how I have a penis.

    I am all for equal rights between the sexes. However, I do like to open doors, and pull out chairs, and all the other gentlemanly things. I do this not because I think women can't open the door for themselves.
     
    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh likes this.
  20. shadowwalker
    Offline

    shadowwalker Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,299
    Likes Received:
    851
    This bothers me a bit. Why do women need men to "lead the way" yet again? Why should men be put in that position yet again? If I want to try something and I know there are mostly/all men doing it - so what? If a woman now-a-days is too fearful to try something simply because of male membership, well, that's her problem, IMO. But then I don't feel for most people who think someone needs to lead them by the hand just to do something they supposedly want to do.
     
  21. T.Trian
    Offline

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    1,449
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    @shadowwalker, the way I see it, there's a reason why some activities are surrounded by the stench of misogyny, and that's mostly the fault of men (originally, that is: now it's maintained by both sexes), hence I believe it's only natural for some women to feel they aren't welcome there. Few people venture into places they think they won't be welcome in, so since men are pretty much responsible for this e.g. around combat sports, shooting sports etc, it would make sense that they at least participate in rectifying the problem.

    I've read plenty of interviews of highly ranked female fighters who started out encouraged by their boyfriend or brother who was already a practitioner or wanted to try it out. Then they fell in love with the sport, their bf or brother quit, but they kept going and became champions. If those men hadn't encourage those women to try those activities, the world would've missed out on plenty of great athletes simply because of prejudices. My question is, what's so wrong about doing your share in helping to get rid of those prejudices?

    It's not about making women feel subservient, the helpless maidens in distress, it's about showing that the assholes aren't the majority anymore, that real men have replaced (most of) them, and that trying out a new activity won't be a bloody battle anymore but perhaps something akin to fun.

    The situation would be similar if, say, boxing circles would've been dominated by white people and other races would've been shunned and ridiculed if they tried to join a club, but that now the attitudes had evolved and every race would be welcome to participate. It would definitely help if the original instigators of the problem (the whites in this example) would extend the first olive branch and welcome the other races with open arms. Then it would be up to the others to decide whether to join or not.

    Most men want women to join their ranks. The presence of women attracts other women, i.e. it helps keep the sport / activity alive and benefits everyone in it, so it's not a purely selfless deed either: men too benefit from introducing women into their sports and clubs, so it only makes sense that they'd proactively seek new members and potential future champions and figureheads among both sexes.

    ETA: That door swings both ways, btw. I, for one, enjoy spending time with my wife, so it was a natural step to introduce Kat to my hobbies just like she introduced me to hers: without her encouragement, I would never have fallen in love with equestrianism and, most of all, if it wasn't for her, we would never have tried out writing together and we wouldn't be here today, I wouldn't have discovered one of my true passions etc. I don't find it offensive or demeaning that a woman introduced me to horseback riding or rekindled my desire to write fiction.

    I've met plenty of women who joined a martial arts / combat sports club because they wanted to, without any prompting from men, but all the men I've met at stables and riding courses (who've been few) were encouraged to try it by their girlfriends or wives, meaning there are also hobbies men feel they wouldn't be all that welcome in or they'd be ridiculed by the female practitioners if they tried it out. All of those men, however, myself included, loved it and were grateful for the women who introduced them to the hobby. Sometimes it helps to get a little nudge or if someone extends you a hand when you're hesitating. I see nothing wrong with that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  22. shadowwalker
    Offline

    shadowwalker Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,299
    Likes Received:
    851
    To me, there's a difference between trying something because someone else invites/encourages you, and expecting/demanding/hoping someone will invite/encourage you to do something you really want to try. If you look at history, you will see that most social breakthroughs came not because someone waited for the "established members" to invite/encourage, but in spite of discouragement/rancor/hatred.

    I'm reminded of a convention I went to several years ago, and the discussion was about women in media (television/movies), specifically in positions of director/producer. Sooooo many women were upset because there weren't more women in those places, and pointed out the few women who had made it. Then came the laments = "Oh, we need more mentors!", "We need more men to open the doors!". Well, guess what? The women who had made it didn't have mentors or someone opening doors for them! They did it themselves, fighting tooth and nail to be sure, but they did what they needed to without waiting for someone to hand-hold them through it.

    If women continue to wait for that invite today, they have no one but themselves to blame if they miss out on life.
     
  23. T.Trian
    Offline

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    1,449
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    I think a very minute minority of people sit and wait for an invite to an activity they want to try. I'd assume most just haven't even considered they might like activity X or they've had bad experiences and few people have so little trouble in their lives that they'd actually want to invite more via their past-times they could spend doing something where they aren't antagonized or bullied.

    I believe both sexes should do their part in changing the trends: men should be more accepting and refrain from ridiculing people because of their sex, race, size, whatever, and women should be more willing to take the plunge although I still place the blame of birthing these age-old stigmas on men.

    Personally, I don't see a difference between a woman inviting her friend to try out her hobby or if it's a man doing the inviting. Often, because of all the social stigmas perpetuated by both sexes (but originally instigated mostly by men), some women don't even realize that they might enjoy activity X because all their life they've been told they wouldn't.

    Then again, there have been times when I've been scared, so I understand if someone else gets scared too and needs some encouragement or support to try thing X. I know that ultimately it's up to the women, but, again, I see nothing bad in encouragement or support. Just because someone is timid by nature, scared because of bad experiences, or hesitant for whatever reason doesn't make them somehow unworthy. Should teachers ignore the shy students? Those who've turned quiet and timid because of bullying? Or should they help them proactively?

    I've also known smaller / weaker guys who've been hesitant about joining a martial arts club because they know they'll be hurt more than their bigger / stronger counterparts, but a little support and encouragement can go a long way.

    Of course, it's a different thing to do something you dislike just to please somebody. That isn't such a good thing unless it's something harmless like a guy going to a knitting class to surprise his gf with a self-knitted scarf or whatever even if he doesn't really like knitting, but you get the gist.
     
  24. Dagolas
    Offline

    Dagolas Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Messages:
    644
    Likes Received:
    68
    Location:
    France
    Pff feminism
     
  25. T.Trian
    Offline

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    1,449
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    @Dagolas, posts like that don't really add anything to the discussion unless your intent is to flame someone, which wouldn't be a good thing. So, care to elaborate?
     
    jazzabel likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page