Hi all, I’ve been thinking about character perspectives for my novel, in which there are at least 10 major characters. I normally like to write in third-person omniscient, so I can pick and choose exactly what details I tell the reader (and which I hold back, for dramatic reasons). However, when I normally write, I’m using perhaps 3 or 4 characters at the most. This flitting back and forth between a multitude of characters is, I fear, becoming somewhat confusing. Of course, it’s easy for me to understand, as I know what’s going on. But for a reader, I think they may find it difficult to keep track of the characters, especially as they all appear in scenes together. I’m thinking now about using close third perspective, with the perspective changing from character to character with each chapter. Would this help ease the confusion over all the characters? I feel as though it would restrict my development of characters, as I wouldn’t be able to offer insight in to each character until we shift to their perspective. Some of my characters are ‘throwaway’, as in they’re only being set up to be killed (think the classic slasher movies). Still, I like to be able to give them some personality, despite not really needing to ever shift to their perspective. Also, the chapters I have written so far would require shifting during the chapter. I know I could add a chapter break, but that feels as though it may be a cheat. Breaking the chapters I’ve written also feels quite awkward, as there aren’t really any natural places for the breaks to occur. I really need to know what I ought to do! What’s the common thing to do here? Am I missing something obvious? Thoughts, feelings, opinions? I have posted a chapter HERE, should anybody care to take a look.
I'd definitely be tempted by multiple close-third, for a story like this. It feels like you could do a lot to build the tension with that kind of setup, especially when they start getting picked off one by one. I probably wouldn't try to give every character the close-third treatment. For the ones who are going to get killed off early, just watch them through the eyes of the others. Give the characters who are going to hang around a bit more room to breathe, at the expense of developing the cannon-fodder so much. That way it's likely to be more of a shock when a followed character gets killed. All that said, I've yet to find better advice for a question like this than 'try it for a couple of chapters and see how it works'.
I write in third limited exclusively, but my novels have only ever had a single POV character. However, don't assume that just because you don't write from a particular character's POV that you can't give that character personality. There's just as much to be gained by not revealing what's in a character's head. There's no easy answer. I find this to be something that is very much up to the author's preferred way of writing, and the requirements of the story that only the author knows. I can say that, as a reader, I find third omniscient very awkward. Maybe I'm just so used to limited that I take it for granted, but jumping from one head to another immediately pulls me out of the story. In short, there's nothing wrong with shifting character perspectives. You don't even need a chapter break for it (though a scene break would be a cleaner way to do it than in the middle of a scene). There's no need to get into every single character's head, and I think to do so would be more trouble than it's worth. Limit the POVs to just a few select characters and show the world through them. You'd be surprised how much you can reveal about non-POV characters, especially when you have multiple lenses from which to view them. Or, you can stick with omniscient. It's still a perfectly viable storytelling method, despite my distaste for it. After all, who am I but a single reader? Best of luck.
I've read a few books were the author did away with chapters titles and rather titled each chapter the name of the POV character. You can try that.
I guess I should just try it. It's not the way I normally like to write, but the more I think about it, I feel it may be the way to go. I'll probably re-write the chapter I've linked to above, and see what I can do with it.
Another thought... In close third, although I know everything about these characters, am I 'allowed' to withhold information from the reader? That's one of the other things I like about being omniscient; I can withhold any information I so choose, to either mislead, or misinform, the audience. For example, I'm in one characters perspective, and they know a secret about another character, can I refuse to mention this detail? Will a reader feel cheated if this character has known this secret all along? If I'm close-third on a character, so I know their thoughts, why do I not know the secrets that they know? Is withholding information acceptable?
I have about 9 MCs in my story and three tier two characters that minor to major roles in the story for a few chapters. In different parts of the story, they are sometimes physically separated, and for those chapters in which one of those play a major role, we see the world through their eyes and feel what they feel. It hasn't caused any of my beta readers confusion, and in fact adds to the depth of each character. When they come into conflict, we can understand them, even when the conflict is told from POV of another of the characters. Just make sure you have a smooth transition between POV shifts. If I do it in a single chapter, it is always associated with a physical change of location, clearly identified, and supports the story line. For example, when my Roman party is sprung from a Chinese jail, it is told from the POV of their friend handling the breakout, a Greek speaking Buddhist monk from Afghanistan , whose heart is pounding with fear of pulling this off, deeply conflicted that some guards are going to be killed, a violation of all his precepts, and fear of getting caught. Then relief after he disguises them as monks and nuns, and uses the monks' unusual freedom of movement in the capital to just walk out through the gates as he does all the time, to meet the rest of their party and head west, going home overland. The next chapter shifts to the Minister of Justice's POV who is leading the investigation. It is clear to him the Romans overpowered the guards, and must be heading east, back to their ships in Tianjin. But how did they just vanish like smoke? Western faces, western garb, not speaking Chinese, but not a trace of them. Then within the same chapter back to the Roman party... they are walking all night, being passed by cavalry patrols clattering by using torches. Are they looking for them, or just an unrelated patrol? Part of the suspense, they don't know, and they are not going to stop them and ask! The patrols seem to ignore them completely. Just monks, traveling with some laborers behind an oxcart.
I'd argue that that's the point of using close 3rd. When you only have the POV character's eyes to look through and head to live in, you only get the world through that character. That means, anything he/she doesn't know or wrongly believes will be portrayed that way to the reader (or should be, at least). Nothing is objective, so the reader has to trust the character to be telling things as they are (but of course, the character is biased and will slant everything). Having multiple POV characters allows you to layer this more intricately. Showing conflicting representations of the world, of different characters, of the events occurring. It makes it more difficult to write, surely, but also gives you a lot more to play with. Just because a character knows something, as well, doesn't mean that character has to be thinking about it or even bring it up. It may just never come up, or the character may deliberately want to block it out/hide it. That adds to the effect of having a different POV character, with no such bias, reveal it during his/her POV scenes. Lots and lots of options.
Everyone else has said this too but try on the format for a little bit and see how it works. Personally I write in multiple-close-third and like it. I usually do have at least two different POVs within each chapter, and have gotten away with three or four within a chapter and not ticked off a ton of readers. One time I even did a where I was only in a certain POV for like five lines of text and mostly got away with it (that scene's probably getting lengthened but not much). That's not to say I've never made my writing group dizzy - my last submission to them did that - but the only way you can tell whether your jumps are confusing is to shop it though a group and see what messes with them and what doesn't. One big thing I've started doing recently, that readers really like, is marking out my scene breaks (and hence my POV breaks) with hard, thick black lines across the page. Writing is a visual medium, and the harder your scene breaks are visually, the easier it will be for readers to keep track. The other thing is that if you're going to commit to the format, you need to remember that every POV is going to have to be distinct in order for it to work. Even though you're not in first person, you are in someone's head, and that leaks onto the page. When I shift POV, I'm not just shifting perspectives, I'm shifting my entire authorial voice. Different characters brains work in different ways, they notice different things about other people, they have different attention spans, different vocabularies, and different sentence structures in their internal monologues. That's not just important for dialogue, it also affects the way you describe things, because you're processing information through different filters. If I'm in my main character's POV, the descriptions of other people will obsess over their facial movements and tone of voice because she's really perceptive. If I'm in her fashionista sidekick's POV, people may get described in a more judgemental and sarcastic manner, and she might analyze them by their clothing choices instead of their expressions. If they're in a bar, the MC will be able to break down conversations and figure out who's lying to her - but she won't understand the significance of the choice of live music, the subliminal messages in the way the room is decorated, or how the design of the sound system limits the type of music that can be played in the venue...all of which her sidekick would pick up instantly. So - all that said - if it feels right, go for it. If not, don't.
You can withhold lots of information that that character knows, and actually I think multiple-close-third makes this easy in some ways - as when the subject involving the secret comes up, you can just be in the head of someone who doesn't know. But you can jump back into the head of the person who does know at other times when they aren't thinking about it. However, it does cause difficulty when you're in the head of someone who has as secret and is talking about that issue - in those cases you have to be very careful in how you structure what they're thinking and what's going on in their internal monologue. That's hard - and the two characters in mine who have the most to hide are also the two that DON'T get POV sequences (I actually have one POV character whose POV functions as a red herring when a lot of really important plot information actually has to do with the background actions of her non-POV roommate, who has ALL the secrets - the POV character is not always the protagonist in a given scene). I would not advise you to keep a lot of your MAIN character's secrets from the reader - whoever you spend the most time with ends up showing the most of their soul. Your main character can have some secrets from the reader (mine does) but not stuff that has a major impact on their day to day conduct. Your minor POV characters can have all kinds of secrets from the reader because you're only in their heads at very specific times. The one's you have to be careful are the ones where massive amounts of their behavior are directly determined by their secret agenda - those are the people whose heads you don't jump into - or jump into very little.
Thanks all for some great advice. @Commandante Lemming - How do you write close-third for multiple characters in a single chapter, without it essentially being omniscience? And if you are breaking between perspective shifts, how are you doing so while keeping it feeling natural?
I do hard scene breaks marked with black lines. If possible, I also try to make sure that every POV change is also a location and/or time change. I try not to head hop within one scene or one conversation (although I do do that). Those chapters tend to be a series of very short scenes in different places. For instance. I'm writing about TV reporters covering a papal election - so one of those chapters has one POV character in the on-site control room in Rome, and another back at headquaters in Washington DC interviewing local Catholics - they're covering the same thing at the same time and talking to each other via earpieces, but they're in three different places. That chapter not only had two POVs, it shifted between those three POVs about five or six times. It was intense - and I can't do that every chapter, but it was the climax of the first act and it worked. I also occasionally use time jumps or brief location changes - I did one chapter where I started in one character's POV having coffee with my protagonist, then the protag got called into a meeting with their editor and runs off. Then I did a scene break, shifted to the protagonist's view, and started that next scene with her walking into the editor's office. If I had been writing that in single POV I would have shown the coffee conversation in the protag's view and then followed her up to the editor's office - but instead I showed the coffee in the side-character's POV, skipped the walk up to the office, and used that little time and location change for a POV shift. It's not always going to work, sometimes it's going to feel unnatural, and that's a trial and error thing that you have to run through readers. But it can be done effectively - I've certainly made readers dizzy but that crazy chapter I described two paragraphs ago - which I THOUGHT was going to fry my readers minds - actually went over really well because it had a clear through line of forward momentum, and all the jump cuts showed how everyone was focused on one thing. It also helped the pacing because the scenes getting shorter and jumping faster sped up the pace.
The other thing with those scene breaks is that they kind of function as sub-chapters within my chapters. I define a chapter in my book as a collection of 2-4 scenes with a defined arc that starts in the first scene and ends in the last scene. These scenes are defined by a specific time period or event and the characters reaction to it, but are not continuous and do not all happen in the same place. Usually the events all happen over the course of a few hours. So one chapter I did my MC's first date with the love interest and it outlined like this: Scene 1: MC's POV - she's at her house getting dressed for the date and freaking out over what to wear with her roommate (who is going out herself and also getting dressed). Roommate agrees to help her put an outfit together but you don't see the resulting outfit. Scene 2: Love Interest's POV about twenty minutes later - he's in his truck arriving to pick her up. She's sitting on the front steps and I describe what she's wearing, showing you the results of the conversation in Scene 1. His heart goes pitter-patter, she gets in the car and the scene ends with her asking where they're going. Scene 3: Roommate's POV - It's about an hour and a half later and she's at a bar pursuing a piece of her subplot. This makes sense of the odd clothes she was putting on in Scene One and make some sense because you're seeing the end result of the second half of the first scene - preservation of forward momentum. It's the beginning of a major piece of her subplot and drops some really important information - but mostly it functions as a breather from the romantic tension. Scene 4: MC's POV about the same time as Scene 3 - She's enjoying the date, which is already in progress (they're out in the woods and he's preparing a romantic dinner over a campfire). He finishes cooking, sits down on the log next to her, they have a romantic conversation where she tries to get him to come out his shell, the conversation ends with her kissing him and we fade to black.
In various discussions of POV, I've suggested reading Robert Barnard's Death of a Mystery Writer. It's far from my favorite Robert Barnard novel (I love Robert Barnard, but I prefer his warm novels to his witty/stylish ones, and this is in the witty/stylish group), but the way that he handles POV is interesting. I suppose it must technically be omniscient, but it has the close connections that I association with close third person--just, the character we're close to at any given moment keeps changing. The first chapter is pretty straight omniscient, but chapters II, III, and IV have the characteristic that I'm describing.
As somebody who has read some of @Commandante Lemming 's story, I can say that his method works. Really really well. It may sound confusing, switching POV so often, but in his case he pulls it off. The 'voices' of his characters are very distinct. It becomes evident early on that this is a story with many parts. The one thing he does well ...and this is the most important thing when you're switching heads ...is he orients the reader immediately as to whose head we're in. Not only with the physical breaks (a line—dotted or otherwise—is a great physical tool for scene breaks like this), but he also makes it clear who is speaking or thinking at any one time. He is good at handling multiple viewpoints of the same events and characters. It's fun to see how each of the characters views the others. I think this is a tricky thing to work, and it's not my 'method' of storytelling. But he does it very well. If this is the method you're planning to use, @mad_hatter , just pay close attention to how you introduce each change of POV. Make sure the reader knows immediately whose head they'll be in for the next wee while. I'd avoid head hopping within scenes, though, if you can. Scenes can be short, but resist the impulse to head-hop within them, at least till you get very good at this. The thing you're trying to avoid, I hope, is confusing the reader. If folks aren't sure whose head they're in at any given point, they'll get the wrong end of the stick and end up even more confused. Or they'll start backtracking to see what they've missed, and get yanked out of the story. As to a POV character keeping secrets from the reader. Oh, that's tricky. VERY. It's a worthy issue to work on. In fact, it might benefit from its own thread. If the reader gets to the end of your story and feels cheated by what you've withheld, you've not done it well. If the reader gets to the end of the story and feels as if they've been on quite a ride and are gobsmacked by what they 'missed' throughout the story, you've succeeded. The very best example of this that I can think of is Lesley Glaister's novel Nina Todd is Gone. What she pulls off in that novel made my jaw drop and stay there. Really masterful handling of this issue. I'd highly recommend it, if you're interested in how to engineer this little trick. I fell for it, hook line and sinker, and it left me with much to think about. Specifically, how we so often have to take people at their own valuation. You assume they're being honest, because what else can you do? But sometimes they're not. They can range from fooling themselves in order to avoid facing reality, to deliberately fooling you for their own ends. It's good to be aware this can happen.
@Commandante Lemming – I tend to break my chapters by scene, i.e. each scene is its own chapter. I only tend to use scene breaks within a chapter if there is only a slight shift in time/location. For example, in one chapter, the group are together at first, then, two characters leave the group. We stay with the group for a little while, before a scene break skips us over to the two who left the group. I only like using these breaks when they occur naturally, but when the break doesn’t warrant a new chapter. I can see how shifting perspectives at this point would work just fine. But what if there are no natural scene breaks within your chapter? Do you stay with the same character throughout? --- If you would perhaps care to take a quick look at the chapter I’ve linked to in my OP, I don’t feel I have any natural scene breaks within there. I could shift from the perspective of one of the teenage girls, to Helen (their tutor), but there’s no natural break at that point. Would you suggest sticking with the first perspective through the chapter, introducing any characters I can from that perspective, before shifting perspective in the following chapter, to give more insight into that next character? --- ^^^^ Thinking about this, I guess this is what I should try. It’ll shorten my chapters (or lengthen them, if I go for scene breaks instead of chapter breaks) but it most likely ease any confusion. @jannert – I’m sure this is something I could ask Lemming himself, but since you bring it up I’ll address you... How does one “...make it clear who is speaking or thinking at any one time”? I get the idea of giving a character a voice, and when I’ve written in close third, it’s something I’ve enjoyed doing. But I’m not sure I can see this working with so many potential perspectives – the voices would have to be so distinct and I’m not sure one teenage character would think/sound all that different to the next. So what are the options? Is it as simple as starting the chapter/scene with “Alex peered out the window, thinking about...”, to indicate who are focus is on? Or is there something else that I’m missing? Also, with the secrets - in this piece, it’s not too much of a problem; one character knows that another character is pregnant. I think one way that I can keep that a secret would be by letting the reader know that there’s a secret being kept from them. However, I have an outline for a novel (which I started, but gave up on for this exact reason!) where our main protag is actually revealed to be a murderer. I couldn’t for the life of me figure out how to keep this secret, without the reader feeling cheated at the time of the big reveal.
Yes, do the kind of thing you suggested. Start the new scene with: Alex peered out the window. Or: After the storm finished, Alex started shoveling the sidewalk. Or: "Where on earth am I going to put all that snow," Alex grumbled to himself. The morning of his interview was not starting well. Get the new POV character's name in there quickly. If this is the first time we've met Alex, let us in on just a bit of who he is within the first couple of sentences as well. It's really very simple to do, and will pay great dividends when it comes to readers following your story. Also, if there is a time-lapse of some significance, make sure that also gets slotted in: The morning of his interview Alex peered out the window and saw....(whatever he saw.) Or: "You broke your leg dancing with Jenny at the prom—three whole weeks ago?" Alex tried to keep a chuckle from creeping into his voice, aware that Light Fandango Fred wasn't looking happy at all. "What in hell happened? Why didn't you tell me before?" All sorts of ways to do this, but just make sure you do it. Give us a transition between scenes, if you can. Whatever you do, don't let the reader be confused as to whose head we're in, or what the location is, or how much time has elapsed between the previous scene, or the last time we saw this character. It becomes second-nature to do this after you've been writing a while. Whatever other stylistic sacrifices you may have to make, by all means keep your readers on board at all times. They should be engrossed in your story, in what is happening and what is going to happen next. They should never be left wondering what the heck is going on now, or who the characters are. As to the issue of secrecy, especially as it pertains to your novel ...read Nina Todd is Gone. It's excellent. I can't think of a better example of how to work this kind of story.
Thanks for all the advice here. It's been very useful! I've re-written most of the chapter in question, from 2 two close-third perspectives, with a scene break between them. It actually reads a lot better. It has also allowed me to develop characters a little more, even those whose POV we do not shift to. Having other character talk about those people, despite e the fact that what they are thinking may not be entirely accurate, has allowed me to add depth to those characters. I'm very happy writing this way! I'll post some of what I've written tomorrow, to maybe get some feedback. Cheers!
I took a look at what you wrote - skimmed it more than read it (long day). Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like it's mostly one running conversation? That doesn't lend itself to cutting but if your wanted to I see a few opportunities - actually you kind of do it already. You start more or less in Zoe's POV and shift to Helen's when she exits the school (change in location - opportunity for jump-cut). Then you move locations entirely to the side of the minibus with Tom/Pete/Elliott - you made the jump cut yourself there, you just did it without a scene break. After that it starts hopping around but you could probably finish it out without a secne break if you did it right. That said - there may be another option you're missing here. At present you are NOT writing in true Third Person Omniscient. You are writing in Third Person CINEMATIC which is different. That's relevant here because this is the type of relationship drama that might benefit from true omniscience. The difference between the Cinematic and Omnicient viewpoints is as follows: In Cinematic, you can't see inside anyone's head - you're the camera lens following them around. In Omniscient, you can see inside everyone's head - you're essentially god. In Omniscient, you see what all the sides are thinking, and instead of building suspense based on what the reader can't see, you build it based on the fact that the reader knows exactly what the bad guys are planning and they realize that the good guys are walking into a trap. The book (which I've not read yet) that is most cited as a good modern use of Omniscient is Frank Herbert's Dune. So you might look at some passages of that. I've also heard Pride and Prejudice cited as a good use of that POV, which given that it's a relationship drama you might look for come similarities in ways to tell the story. I would, however, discourage you from using the Cinematic viewpoint too heavily. It's generally discouraged in fiction, and at times it feels a bit jarring because it jumps from character to character too much and makes it hard to focus. I think you're on the right track and you have a good story going, but maybe do some research on viewpoint and figure out the best ways to shove your story into either multiple-close-third or true omniscient (both of which give you the inside-the-head color you want in a story like this.) I struggled with that for a while and tried to find a way to write Cinematic with head-hopping, but at the end of the day I decided to commit fully to multiple-close-third, and it really changed the way I thought about writing. It forced me to plan out my scenes coherently and think about who could see what, what POV I needed to be in at any given time, where I needed to end scenes, etc. For a while I thought the complexity of the story would be lost if I shifted out of cinematic but actually it was really enhanced and I feel so much more confident in my ability to construct a story. I just have to think about the viewpoint elements more conciously before I start writing a given chapter (I'm a discovery writer but now I outline my chapters when I start so that I know which scenes I'll need where I shift POV) You've got something cool, you just need to finesse it and figure out the best viewpoint format to help you tell this wonderful complex relationship drama you're building. Try these two podcasts as starting points and GOOD LUCK! I like your stuff a lot. On Omniscient: http://www.writingexcuses.com/2012/03/18/writing-excuses-7-12-writing-the-omniscient-viewpoint/ On Limited: http://www.writingexcuses.com/2010/09/07/we-5-1-third-person-limited/
Thanks @Commandante Lemming, I'll certainly check all those things out. You're absolutely right; I am writing in cinematic, I just didn't know it! And having rewritten this today, I also see that I am hopping from person to person, almost into their close pespective (but not quite). There are also times where I've dipped in to a characters thoughts, but they're few and far between... Having rewritten it, I've tightened it all up in to a very defined close-third, starting with Alex, then hopping to Helen after a scene break. I've completely removed the dialogue between the lads; I think that will turn up now in the following chapter. It was definitely worthwhile starting this thread, as I've already learned a lot and it's actually he given me more drive to work on this. That's great! Thanks again!
I didn't read the replies. So hopefully I am not just repeating people. In my experience head-hopping, or a more open POV setting is more like a movie. Mimically the camera and such. Obviously people use this approach and to what I assume is success. I personally lean away from it. Not because I think it is bad, but because I think I used it poorly. That in my cases I was writing like it was a movie which I don't believe is useful. Books and movies have very different formats and have different strengths. As stated above, I suppose if people have used this format in writing than it can work. I would suggest stepping back asking this question. "Am I doing this because it is benefiting the story or because it is the first impression in my head." In this world with constant TV it is easy to imagine things like TV and that can be a mistake I think. Not that is a mistake but can be one. Books I think thrive on the deeper connection you get from the limited POV. You may find that the implication that you needed all these alternate POVs was a false positive. Again, not saying that is the case. I am just all for stepping back and challenging the original conclusions. Sometimes that can help a lot as you might have been spending a lot of time trying to make something work that simply didn't need to exist. And yes the true irony of the situation is my main story has like 10 POV through the book and my entire argument here seemed to be about limiting POV. lol Funny ain't it? lol
So I've completed my rewrite. Hopefully this reads much better. I've removed a portion of the dialogue, that distracted from development of the main characters. The one thing I'm still unsure of is how to include certain conversations between characters that don't involve the POV character. Of course, these conversations happen within earshot of the POV character. Should I make note of the fact that the POV character is listening to this? Or is it okay for the conversations to just happen? I've gone with the second option, and it seems to work okay. Anyway... HERE is the thread, should anybody care to take a look. Cheers!
I'm opposed to the second option. (In general. I haven't read your piece yet.) I think that there's a fair chance that those conversations may just have to go. I do realize that you may regard that as unacceptable.
What would be the reasoning for this? If these conversations happen around the POV character, surely they can exist? Can it not remedied by simply indicating that the POV character can hear this?
