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  1. Swiveltaffy
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    Swiveltaffy Contributing Member Contributor

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    Ignorantly Raising Questions about American Politics and News: Never Losing Sight of the Poor Title

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Swiveltaffy, Oct 7, 2014.

    Yo:

    I'll start with clarifications: I'm not knowledgeable, I'm not going to reference peer-reviewed studies, I will likely speak of generalities, I will bring my meek perspective/analysis of things to the table, and I will rant a bit.

    If you watch a debate on C-SPAN, you often see two white men in ill-fitted suits speak through one another, never really saying anything but surface-layer lines to dupe a public who is spun by their rhetoric-making selves. Every damn one of 'em panders. Every one of 'em has to appeal to some American commonplace. Every one of 'em is making air into words of similar consistency. And, as long as you're on the right side of that glorious fence, you're gonna follow your man like that abused pit down the street. It's all masks, you know? Could you imagine forcing a politician to be completely honest? The worst part is that they probably, either through self-persuasion or long-time conviction, buy there own shit like it's AAA. Point is, you hear someone speak on some stand, you hear tailored words for a picky ear.

    The big news corporations do the same damn thing; they're out for money, and they could care less 'bout empiricism and honest portrayal. If they keep pumping out to their constituency, aligned by the vibrant and so-stark dichotomy, because a Republican is damn-different than a Democrat, because they both ain't buying and selling into the same botched system bottom-level sweet-talkin' and ignorance, they keep their viewers and pocketbooks.

    And not to sound like some theorist, but the sheep just keeps on followin'.

    A problem of factors paint a bad picture for the U.S.: ignorant and apathetic citizens, corrupted politicians, gridlock, two-party system, profit-prioritized economy, disregard for inequality, lack of genuine address and discussion outside of academics, sectionalism, lack of care for the whole, absence of an idea of community worth, ideas of freedom that conflict with well-being, unfulfilled education, strange American values that lack introspection and blatantly conflict one another. These are just the first that come to mind.

    I realize that I, as always, have failed to make a line of thought. I'll guess I'll just throw out some broad questions.

    What do you think about American politics (or your country's if you want)? Where do you think problems are most prominent? Are there solutions? Prediction for the last question: Yeah, but they are incredibly complex. Yep.

    Whatever, hope I'm communicable. Take it over if you have a direction to take it.
     
  2. jazzabel
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    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think that political and public debates that aim to convince ordinary folk to lend their support to Option 1 vs Option 2 (even if ordinary folk have no knowledge or in-depth appreciation of the issues) is quite different from ethical debates that are concerned with what is the right, more appropriate, less damaging thing to do. For example, doctors debating the ethics of patient autonomy in decision making regarding their care, or euthanasia for terminally ill children or abortion or the profession's stance on gender, will concern themselves with patient's welfare above all else, as well as intrinsic ethics of their profession that demands that we 'do no harm'.

    A couple of politicians 'debating' access to abortion for women in the context of election campaign, neither have the medical expertise nor ethics nor the goal of women's welfare as their prime concern. So they can spin any issue, use dirty tactics such as illogical arguments. pandering to religion, tradition etc. to garner support, because half the time they are using controversial issues to split the general public in order to gain votes, the debate topic is just a platform for their power struggle.

    I must admit that American politics is quite unique in the 'circus' of it all, in Australia and the UK which I have most knowledge of, it's all much less flamboyant, but I think all our countries struggle with similar issues you outlined above. This is why I always point out that in debates, we can't equate knowledge and ignorance and that people have the right to their own opinions but they don't have the right to their own facts. But in the election-style 'debates' that never goes down well.
     
  3. Swiveltaffy
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    Swiveltaffy Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yet, you'd think, our politicians should be and do the exact opposite, They should listen the experts, reasonably come to conclusions, and do what's just and sound. It's all this double-speak and then, even double-listen.

    Again, with everything, I guess, my mind returns to some need for some idealized, likely inefficient, educational system that raises people who reject such corruption and ignorance.
     
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  4. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Corruption and ignorance are human conditions, not limited to politicians, though they seem to have elevated those shortcomings to an art form. As you mentioned, the problem is that those practices work, due to an ignorant and apathetic electorate who seem to want to be ruled by people they wouldn't have in their homes.

    Solutions? Only one that I can see: bloody revolution. There, I said it.
     
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  5. Swiveltaffy
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    Swiveltaffy Contributing Member Contributor

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    You did say it, and while I'd like to hope that there are better ways to do go about it, I can see the turn to it.
     
  6. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    The problem is that most folks seem to have forgotten that the government works for the people. I think once we address that, we'll begin making some progress on this issue.
     
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  7. Swiveltaffy
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    Swiveltaffy Contributing Member Contributor

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    We also need thought behind action. I think we need an adjustment of societal goals. We're too disparate as a country, too.
     
  8. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Which is why I think we need to forget (to the extent that they'll let us) the federal government and focus our attention on state and local bodies. Easier accessibility, fewer and smaller entrenched bureaucracies and the option to test possible solutions in 50 separate 'laboratories'.

    We have to find ways to lessen the influence the federal government has on our lives. The only people who have the ability to make serious changes in that quagmire are the same people who benefit most from the status quo. Never happen.
     
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  9. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Dude, read Chomsky. You'll love him. And his British counterpart for all fellow UKers, Alan Sinfield.
     
  10. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Ran across this in my quotes folder. Truer words ...

    "There's a reason for this, there's a reason education sucks, and it's the same reason it will never ever ever be fixed. It's never going to get any better. Don't look for it. Be happy with what you've got... because the owners of this country don't want that.

    I'm talking about the real owners now... the real owners. The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They've long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls. They got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear.

    They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying. Lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don't want.

    They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help them. That's against their interests. That's right. They don't want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they're getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fuckin' years ago. They don't want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.

    And now they're coming for your Social Security money. They want your fuckin' retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They'll get it. They'll get it all from you sooner or later 'cause they own this fuckin' place. It's a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. By the way, it's the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted, folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good, honest, hard-working people: white collar, blue collar, it doesn't matter what color shirt you have on. Good, honest, hard-working people continue -- these are people of modest means -- continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don't give a fuck about them.

    They don't give a fuck about you. They don't give a fuck about you. They don't care about you at all! At all! At all! And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That's what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that's being jammed up their assholes every day, because the owners of this country know the truth. It's called the American Dream, 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it."

    -- George Carlin
     
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