Inspiration: The Correctness of Critics

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by Flying Geese, Oct 4, 2013.

  1. Uberwatch

    Uberwatch Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    There are three types of critics for anything.

    1.) The ones that over-praise for the sake of keeping up to popular opinion.
    2.) The ones that are overly cynical and negative in every aspect. Also to follow popular opinion.
    3.) Honest ones that point out the pros and cons.

    I do believe some editors for various news outlets edit critic's work so it meet up to the standards. Because in a business, especially an online news source, They want works of critics that readers can associate with. So if one critic's opinion was agreeable with most of the audience, it means people would like the critic. That would draw in more viewers. More page clicks, more money.


    I guess it would be the same for publishing books. I was initially planning to go do screenwriting in a few years but since Hollywood keeps butchering manuscripts until they get what they want, I'm sticking to novel writing for a while. It just saddens me that I read about some guy's work of a future movie is ruined because Hollywood looks for demographics, key audiences. "Hey, the audience likes big explosions so lets add them in this guy's movie!"

    I think businesses get a little out of hand when changing someone's expression in work. Book, movie, video game. It's the same situation.
     
  2. Kefa

    Kefa New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Finland
    It's pretty crazy how many rules there are about publishing over there compared to here. Here in Finland we pretty much go freestyle. Only requirements over here are readable font, 12 pt, at least 1,5 spaced and of course writing a good book.
     
  3. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Nothing about italics?

    JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!
     
    GingerCoffee likes this.
  4. Uberwatch

    Uberwatch Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    I've been noticing a lot of talk about italics on the forum? What's the buzz about them?
     
  5. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    294
    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    @Wreybies @EdFromNY he's not saying it - and I'm not saying he's saying (he or anyone else with a three-digit IQ) :) read it as a sort of reductio ad absurdum, but not on a personal level...when writting these posts I usually try to answer to @people in the same paragraph, and then any subsequent paragraph is either adressed to the OP, or is just me talking to myself :)
     
  6. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    Ah... Ok. Things fall into place now. ;) LOL :D
     
  7. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    That concerns two main questions, as far as I'm aware.

    1. Should words be italicised in a MS? This surrounds the worry over formatting your MS right for agents, and as far as I'm aware, you're generally supposed to underline any words you want italicised in the published, final product, esp if the font you're using makes italics hard to see. But other agents may want your MS formatted to the way it's meant to be published. Basically, check their submission guidelines, but likely there wouldn't be much on italics, leaving new writers confused and afraid.

    2. Should italics even be used, ever? This concerns the idea of "good writing". If your writing is good enough, surely you shouldn't need italics to artificially stress your words. Some see it as bad practice because of this, as some kind of proof that you're an amateur who's unable to write well enough to show where the emphasis still fall in your own writing without help. There's a similar thinking over all caps, though with all caps it's clear, whereas with italics it's not. Then you'll find writers pointing out how even Stephen King uses italics. So we go back and forth and back and forth. In the end, I think most of us just write the way we think is best.

    Personally, I use italics, which I underline for the sake of proper MS formatting.
     
  8. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    Ok, seriously, I'm not trying to be shmuck, but the italics conversation has its own stickied thread in Word Mechanics. I don't know why this particular subject always starts off innocently and then turns into something else, but it does. Anyone interested in joining the Epic Quest of the Italics can find it here. No one is in trouble. No one has done anything wrong. I just don't want this particular subject sprouting out away from where I have it quarantined. Go look at the thread and maybe you'll understand why I have the attitude that I do.
     
    Mckk and Burlbird like this.
  9. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    294
    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    @Wreybies dammit...those italics sounded so tempting ;)
     
  10. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    @Wreybies - ah, and there I was hoping to plant the poison ivy of italics. Alas. :D
     
  11. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Not going there. If you don't know, be thankful.
     
  12. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    The reality is that getting published is competitive, so much so that those who have to make the decision have formulated criteria to help narrow the field.

    You may not like it, but your only alternative is to forget about getting published and just walk away.
     
  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    If you apply for a job, you probably show up in appropriate clothing, even if that clothing has nothing to do with your ability to do the job. You probably print your resume in black ink on good white paper, instead of, say, orange ink on perfumed transparent viewfoils, even if the information is the same, and equally easy to read, on either.

    The clothing and resume are a signal that you understand the situation and are prepared to comply with its well-known requirements.

    That's how I see a correctly formatted manuscript. A writer who offers a mis-formatted manuscript may be a writer who hasn't done his research on the market, or who refuses to comply with the simplest requirements of the market. How much extra trouble will that writer be, either because of the need to teach him or the need to persuade him to make his work marketable? Dozens of hours? Hundreds? After dozens of hours will it eventually become clear that the writer has no intention of cooperating, so that the deal falls through and all those hours are wasted?

    If there are dozens of manuscripts that are very fine and show that the writer already understands the market and is already ready and eager to comply with its standards, why would an agent go out of their way to try to rescue a writer that doesn't? Yes, that writer may be a great person who deserves a chance. But why can't he do his part to earn that chance by fulfilling what are really very simple expectations?
     
  14. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    294
    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    @ChickenFreak I completely agree with you. But: I really think it's something extremely easy to comprehend and, really, I can't see why so much talk about it. I mean, as I said, anybody who doesn't understand the issue of formatting text according to submission guide -is a moron. And being a moron, I can't see him ever being able to write something readable.
    BUT: what I reacted to was the mention of bad text formatting and SPAG errors in the same context. I believe that any formatting issues can be resolved in a matter of seconds, while bad grammar, punctuation etc needs either a detailed proofreading or another four years of schooling.

    Say that formatting = adequate attire for a job interview. Then grammar = curriculum vitae. :) both are needed, but there is still different levels of importance: and levels of moronism. You'd agree that a lawyer applying for a neurosurgeon position is a way bigger moron than somebody wearing tennis shoes for an office job. :)
     
  15. Skaruts

    Skaruts Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Portugal
    I believe the issue is not that there are critics or editors whose approval we may be forced to struggle for, the issue is that many times they may not realise the subjectiveness of their criticism.

    I'm not very knowledged about editors, but I've been noticing certain arts critics, in particular video-game critics, and the latter are the worse. Video game critics are often people with mere journalistic aspirations and perhaps a passion for video games, but they often have no credentials other than passion, and just as most people, they either fail to adress the subject of their criticism from an impartial perspective, or neglect to make sure their opinionated article/review doesn't come across as though they believe it to be objectively true.

    In the case of video games, the fault is also on the consumers, that many times take the critics' words as gospel due to a certain fandom toward the critic. Even still, metacritic, as you pointed out, shows us the overall difference between critics opinion and general opinion (which can, in a way, be used to get an approximate idea of the quality of the product).

    In the case of other arts I'm not too sure, but I've seen cases of critics stumbling over their own feet, in cases nearly like a white canvas with one blot being aah'ed and ooh'ed for being "remarkable" in some unfathomable way the critics could somehow fathom.

    This doesn't mean all of them are retarded or overly opinionated. If you look closely and chose wisely you can find critics whose assessments are trustworthy in the sense that they are intelectually honest.

    I do tend to believe, though, that editors are a different thing. As some have already pointed out, you do need editors to prevent all kinds of accidic trash from littering bookstores.

    I have never tried to publish anything though, so I don't know much of how it all works, but I'm still assuming that even if one or another editor (or anyone else in the publishing process) are indeed arrogant twits, it still doesn't mean they all are.

    By the way, I loved Final Fantasy 8 a lot too. :)
     
  16. wellthatsnice

    wellthatsnice Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2015
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    99
    wow, OP really lumped a bunch of people together who's roles in writing and publishing couldnt be more varied. Its the same as saying in sports that my Agent, Coach, GM, and Announcer all do the exact same thing. No, no they dont.

    Having a bad editor is an authors fault. If you are trying to write for a publication, the number 1 thing you should look at when deciding the pubs to submit to as a freelancer is the editor and how similar their style and content is to your own. You need to have respect for your editor, otherwise you will never be able to accept their opinions on changes that need to be made. This is the person that will be editing your work and you need to share a vision and trust.

    If you are a novel writer it is even more important to find someone who excels in a similar genre and style. You wouldn't have a soccer coach teach you how to pitch a curve ball (well they are both sports?!?!?) why would you have a comedy writer edit your fantasy thriller.

    Finding the right people for your career in writing is like dating and i think this is a big issue that people fall in to here. They get a couple rejections and get worried that they dont have a good manuscript. Then the first positive feedback they get they go all in with that editor or agent even when its a terrible fit. A few months down the road, they are getting feedback that is causing them to change the foundation of what they book is about and the writer doesnt understand why.

    FYI critics, editors and agents are vastly different people in the industries of Novels, Movies, and video games. Your editor should be your partner, they got your back and help make your ideas work. Your agent is your hype man/woman, they are there to help sell you in to a publisher, and make sure you don't get taken advantage of. The critic is a non-affiliated person who's opinion is respected by people in the space. Technically they are not there for the author, they are there for the general public in order to help them weed through all the media that is out there and help the audience decide where to spend their limited resources (time, money, etc...)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2015

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice