Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.

    Intense harassment of women online

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by GingerCoffee, Mar 2, 2015.

    When Misogynist Trolls Make Journalism Miserable for Women
    And here @Lemex, is why you are wrong to say, just turn your computer off:
    From the article referred to:
    Why Women Aren't Welcome on the Internet
    This thread is a continued discussion from here: The Assault on Cytherea and Political BS
     
  2. KaTrian
    Offline

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,564
    Likes Received:
    3,561
    Location:
    The Great Swamp
    I'm replying to your post from the other thread.
    According to PRC's definition of harassment, men do. I pointed at what their research said. You are free to not count it as harassment.

    If by victimization you mean sexual harassment and stalking, then yes. According to their findings. I'm sure there are other studies out there too.

    Study claims:
    "Online men are somewhat more likely than online women to experience some level of online harassment overall. "

    In terms of the study, by intense you mean "more serious forms of online harassment"? There's no need to try to make it look like I was stating otherwise. That men are intensely harassed more often than women or some such.

    Yeah, it's not significant. Doesn't make things any brighter for any of those harassed. The findings are depressing.

    I did. Overall, men felt they were harassed more while for women sexual harassment was more frequent.

    I'm sorry if my short, short summary was so misleading. The data is there for anyone to peruse.
     
    T.Trian likes this.
  3. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,210
    Likes Received:
    4,220
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    I'm of the same mindset. There are people whose entire livelihood depend on them being on the internet, so no, they're not going to just simply turn off the computer. Why would they? That's basically them going to their boss to say, "I quit." So if someone whose job demands they be on the internet is bombarded with constant harassment day in and day out, it can be quite difficult, I imagine, to keep going both mentally and professionally. One can only take so much abuse before enough is enough.
     
    T.Trian and KaTrian like this.
  4. KaTrian
    Offline

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,564
    Likes Received:
    3,561
    Location:
    The Great Swamp
    This quote is from an article about verbal harassment but the way she explains the feeling you get from lewd remarks resonates with me.

    Reading how women (and men) feel about harassment, and understanding your skin doesn't have to be endlessly thick, is not to be scoffed or chortled at. Just turn off the computer isn't always possible. Forgetting isn't always possible. Comments (by a woman, actually, a mod, no less) once left me hurt for days, made me question my self-worth, and telling myself it was just by someone on an egotrip a million miles away and couldn't reach me, did little to help. I think with internet I feel even stronger impotent rage than with verbal harassment. You can't do much else but throw something shitty back, but what would be the point? This is also why I wouldn't belittle the emotional impact of eg. public shaming. While not as disturbing as rape / death threats or stalking, it can still sting and ruin someone's day.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  5. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I didn't say it wasn't harassment. I said it wasn't the same thing and wasn't comparable to what @Jack Asher was referring to.

    By victimization I am referring to intense long term harassment. If someone calls me a name, I don't feel like a victim. If I'm an online science blogger as well as a professor at a university and I get barraged by sexual harassment in the comments section of my blog to the point I have to either turn comments off or require they be approved before showing up, that is what I'm talking about. I know women this has happened to.

    There are lots of people out there who are threatened by challenges to their beliefs. When you have someone like PZ Myers' blog, Pharyngula, he gets harassed continually by people who are offended by his posts. I imagine Richard Dawkins is subject to something similar. So I'm not saying it never happens to men.

    But among my female friends and acquaintances who blog about anything feminist, the attacks are 100 fold more frequent, more disgusting and more personally threatening. Their blogs about science subjects often garner the same level of commentary complete with frequent threats of rape completely unrelated to the topic that is being disagreed with.

    Notice Zoe Quinn was harassed but not the reviewer who supposedly wrote a positive review because they were sleeping together. This is a clear pattern of Internet behavior, attacks on women are of a whole different quality than attacks on men.

    So why mention men are harassed more often at all? It wasn't relevant to the subject @Jack Asher was talking about.

    Again, "felt they were harassed more" is a misstatement of the data. What the survey asked was, have you ever been "called an offensive name" or "purposefully embarrassed"?

    You need not be offended because I pointed out that in this comment, "E.g. PRC found in 2014 that men are harassed more, but women deal more with stalking and sexual harassment" that "harassed more" wasn't relevant to the issue under discussion.

    There was nothing technically wrong with your statement. But in the context of the discussion, where @Jack Asher had just said women's experience with this kind of harassment differed from that of men, your statement appears to diminish Jack's claim.

    Here was the exchange:
    But Jack's statement was true. Pretty much all the women who speak out against sexism in video games get an instant backlash of comments they should or will be raped. Even considering there was some hyperbole there, it's not much of an exaggeration.

    And my friend, @123456789, interpreted your link and comments the same way I did, discounting the problem women online face:
    So I'm not the only one who took your post to be discounting the problem of sexual threats and harassment online.
     
  6. KaTrian
    Offline

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,564
    Likes Received:
    3,561
    Location:
    The Great Swamp
    @GingerCoffee Ah, now I understand. I didn't see it in that context the same way when I posted it, but now I get it. Thanks for clarifying.
     
    GingerCoffee likes this.
  7. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    That's another good point. Some of the women I know this happened to had blogs that were part of their employment, such as Karen Stollznow who writes for Skeptical Inquirer. (Though some of her problem related to a particular relationship drama.)
     
  8. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    @GingerCoffee, with all due respect - I both already responded to you in that other thread and actually meant the exact opposite of that. I clarified myself later in this thread saying:

    I can see why you thought that, given what I literally said. I promise I'll be more careful about how I word things in future - I just wasn't thinking.

    P.S. - I'm actually a little hurt. This thread feels like you singling me out to have a go at, to be honest.
     
  9. Garball
    Offline

    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,846
    Likes Received:
    1,331
    Location:
    S'port, LA
    You're not allowed to be hurt, you know, being a guy and everything
     
    T.Trian, GingerCoffee and Lemex like this.
  10. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,210
    Likes Received:
    4,220
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    My personal opinion: Harassment is wrong. I don't care if you're a man or a woman, no one gets to harass you and make your time on the internet a living hell.
     
    T.Trian and KaTrian like this.
  11. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Now I know how Ghandi must have felt. :(
     
  12. Chinspinner
    Offline

    Chinspinner Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,918
    Likes Received:
    1,018
    Location:
    London, now Auckland
    Well, I actually thought the arguments were made quite well in this thread, and thus far joyously free of the hyperbole, antagonism and emotive language that tends to taint other similar threads (and only has the effect of turning me against a viewpoint I would otherwise agree with).

    A question though (I am at work and no time to research). In the UK there is a maximum 2 year sentence for trolling (I would need to check on the exact crime). Is there an equivalent in the US?

    The problem with the internet is that a vocal minority of arsehats can cause an awful lot of mischief. I think Anonymous proved this quite conclusively. I am all for arresting and charging individuals for criminal behavior, rather than escalating the issue into something it probably isn't.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  13. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I'm not trying to single you or @KaTrian out. I just know a bit about this online assault on women, be they feminists, bloggers, skeptics, scientists, or a nurse in Maine that challenges a needless quarantine order. This has happened to just about every female online that challenges someone's beliefs or ideology. It has happened to some of my friends and it seemed you might not appreciate how common or intense it can be.

    And to tell women to just not read the threats blames the victim as well as the outcome discussed in my OP links: it makes it intolerable for some women to take part in activities they have every right to be taking part in.
     
  14. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    I didn't say women who are harassed shouldn't read the comments. I have to say this twice now on this thread. I meant the exact opposite. As I said in the post you are responding to.

    If you keep saying that I did despite me explaining myself then frankly I've lost a lot of respect for you. I thought you were an intelligent person.
     
  15. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    :)

    There are various laws against cyberstalking. Many were written after young people who were attacked killed themselves.

    The bigger problem is identifying the perps. It hasn't been fully addressed yet. And you are right, when people are not anonymous, they rarely behave that way.
     
  16. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    You changed something you said and you are mad I'm not following the updates? :confused:

    So let's back up to get on the same page.
    That sounds like dismissing the issue and telling the victim to deal with it. Is that what you didn't mean? If so, that's great.
     
  17. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Yeah - you've lost my respect.

    All I need to do is repost my first message on this thread:

     
  18. Chinspinner
    Offline

    Chinspinner Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,918
    Likes Received:
    1,018
    Location:
    London, now Auckland
    It depends on the angle you read it from. I thought he meant the neckbeards guilty of the harassment, which is why I originally responded: -

    The emboldened line, I find myself thinking this a lot when internet furores bubble up. Everything seems to escalate very quickly behind the anonymity of the web. In the UK there have been several high profile cases of trolls winding up in court, and the shocked realisation that their clandestine online habits could actually have repercussions in the real world always confuses me.
     
  19. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    :confused:
    I don't think you realize how confusing that post is.
     
  20. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,210
    Likes Received:
    4,220
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Lemex, with due respect, if you had a job that required you to be on the internet and you had people harassing you, threatening you, doing everything they could to make your job hell, what would you do?
     
  21. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Most likely deal with it in the way I imagine would be the most mature, deal directly with them until they turned to the legal definition of assault and then report those users to the police. Seems like what any sensible person would do.
     
  22. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Just who are you going to report? "MF" in the comment section?
     
  23. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Link didn't go into specifics: if I can get the users IP address I can send that to the police with their messages. If I can't do that, I'd still report it to the police anyway to let them see what is going on.

    I'm not this woman-hating monster you seem to take me for. Just for the record.
     
  24. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    But the people who are harassed most often do not have access to the IP addresses. It's not like I can call my IP and get the IP addresses of people who put comments in a blog. And even with the IP address, the real name and address the IP is registered to is not easily accessed. If it were that simple the problem wouldn't occur.
     
  25. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,604
    Likes Received:
    5,877
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Speaking of hyperbole, :rolleyes:.

    Did I say anything at all about you being a woman hater? No. Good grief.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page