1. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    Is condom use always necessary?

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Arathald, Mar 21, 2011.

    Since I'm apparently not permitted to respond to these comments in the original thread, I'm moving the discussion here, because I think it's something that needs to be addressed.

    This assertion is wrong, and spreading it can be potentially harmful. Safe sex is extremely important for any sexually active person, gay or straight.

    Though condoms are most often used to prevent pregnancy, they also help prevent the spread of many sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV, which causes AIDS. In addition to this, they have a secondary, hygenic, benefit in both straight and gay sex -- I won't elaborate on this point.

    Here are a couple links with information:
    WARNING: The information in these links is presented from a strictly medical perspective, but, by the very nature of this discussion, contains some information that may be beyond the comfort levels of some readers. These links DO NOT contain images related to the content or explain graphic details (the FDA website explains condom use in medical terms), or contain any mature material beyond necessary medical information.

    http://media.www.gwhatchet.com/media/storage/paper332/news/2009/04/23/SexGuide/The-Gay.Condom.Debate-3725299.shtml
    http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/byAudience/ForPatientAdvocates/HIVandAIDSActivities/ucm126372.htm
    http://aids.about.com/od/hivprevention/a/hivprevent.htm

    Addendum:
    Consider this a Public Service Announcement. Sure, it's stupid. It's cheesy. You already know this backwards and forwards in your sleep. In that case, you don't have to pay attention to this. It's here for the benefit of anyone who might not have the same privelages as you do, to respond to and correct misinformation.

    I don't believe it's unnecessary, and, even if it is, the worst that could happen is one more thread dies and gets buried. If I'm right, though, and this post helps educate even one person on proper protection against STDs and HIV/AIDS, then this post is more than worth the very slight inconvenience to you. In other words, the potential benefit of this post far outweights the cost of it. Please consider that before you decide that this post shouldn't exist.
     
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  2. Ion
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    Ion Senior Member

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    AIDS is a serious epidemic because many people assume that if you're gay, you don't need to exercise safe sex.

    This is a blatantly untrue and extremely dangerous assumption to make. Please don't make possibly life altering decisions based on guesses.
     
  3. LordKyleOfEarth
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    LordKyleOfEarth Contributing Member Contributor

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    Why are we debating the merits of a comment made by a reviewer. It's opinion. I agree it has no place in the critique thread, but I don't see why we need an entire thread on it here. If I commented that horsies are pretty, and you thought that horsies were not pretty, would you create a thread to discuss that as well?
     
  4. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    In this guys defense he is trying to "save" someone


    I do agree I don't think it needs a thread
    maybe a simple thing like
    "hey just so you know.."
    no need for a war
     
  5. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    My "hey just so you know" comment, and, in fact, all comments challenging the comments I quoted were removed, while the comments were allowed to stay. I had said my peice and was willing to leave it at that, but the only way I could make sure this comment didn't stay unchallenged was to create a new thread.

    This is worlds apart from debating an opinion about horses; this is someone stating things that are contrary to medical science that could potentially have dangerous consequences if someone were to follow them. "I don't think gay people should use condoms" is an opinion. "Gay men don't need condoms. I'm sure that comes off as common sense." is an assertion of a scientific and medical fact.

    And besides, if there was enough interest and discussion around whether horses were pretty or not, it would be appropriate to take the offtopic discussion to another thread. You can't see the posts anymore, but there was an active discussion being started about this in the other thread.

    If you think this isn't worthy of it's own thread, then, fine, don't respond to it. This is the general, discuss-anything forum, and I can name at least a dozen threads in more restrictive sections of these forums that I certainly didn't think were worth a new thread.
     
  6. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    Whoa slow down buddy, we arint saying your not doing the right thing

    just saying you can say (off the side and NOT taking over the thread, or even in PM this)
    no one wants to debate this to my knowledge

    there dose not seem to be much instreast
    and your post is not a debate its a statement
    what you did was take something form another thread and posted it saying
    "Gays need condoms to!"
    which while true really has nothing to debate

    (as far as i can tell I'm not an expert on this)
    also every year MILLIONS of people misuse medical advice

    when someone says take a pill for this or that

    or when someone says use this to get rid of this poisons


    its really not worth it to post a thread every time
    I'm not saying dont tell them they are wrong (respectably)
    but don't make a whole thread about it, other wise we will never have any other kind of thread
     
  7. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    I'm sorry, but I don't see how these two statements fit together

    Not every thread has to be a debate. Consider this an informational thread. I didn't want to start a new thread, but since I wasn't permitted to at all challenge the potentially dangerous assertion, consider this my reply, in the intention that anyone who saw the comments and might be mislead by them will also see my reply, including links to where someone might educate themselves on the subject. If people don't want to discuss it further, than the thread will die. Fine.

    This is a very personal issue to me, and I can't let such an assertion of fact (again, not a statement of opinion) go unchallenged. If you see something like this, and you're unable to respond to it in the original thread, then it's your choice whether to start a new thread. That was my situation, and I decided it was worth starting a new thread over. If you don't think this is a discussion-worthy topic, then don't discuss it.

    (once again, so I can respond specifically to this)

    And if every time people find a thread they think isn't worth discussing, they post a reply like this, we will never have any other kind of response to a thread.

    I appreciate the fact that you don't think this is worth posting about, but I, at the same time, respectfully disagree and would ask that you respect my right to post about this topic that I believe is extremely important.
     
  8. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    you are welcome to star another thead about gays and condms but the problem i have is the way you said in this posts
    and how the first post was worded
    "
    seems like you wanted to "get the last word in and keep on debating"
    but this would be beter in PM since only two as far as i can tell where talking and has nothing to do with this form

    that being said

    They do, Don t make threads like this just because someone says something that is wrong

    Your idea is right (make sure pepole know)
    but the way you did it seemd wrong

    #1 this is a spin off of a debate so you are trying to re post your work since you could not keep the old one
    (means this is a debate or rather a quick post about a debate form antoher thread)

    So if you say condoms lead to safe sex (which they can)
    can I make a separate thread about the fact that for the most part you don't need "safe sex" that condoms can help you stop geting STD's but not evrey one has STD's I could i should'nt


    I'm not discussing the topic, I'm discussing the fact you posted the topic

    the Big problem for me is form what I could tell the debate got deleted
    and you went and post the same thing some where eles
    to me thats... wrong

    thats like if i posted something it got deleted so i moved it some where eels

    I will respect it for now on and leave it to the mods
    to decide
     
  9. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    I didn't do this to have the last word. I welcome the original poster of those comments to join us in here to discuss the issue, and I linked to this thread from the other -- as part of a useful, on-topic post, mind you -- so that he can easily find this thread if he so desires.

    PM is not the appropriate place to handle this, as the information is as much for people who may have paid attention to these comments as they are for the original commenter himself. I'm not convinced that he wasn't trolling, in which case, responding in a PM would serve absolutely no purpose, and, even though I don't like to feed trolls, I believe it is an important enough issue to correct the misinformation.

    The reason that it appears there were only two of us is that the other posts were deleted by mods. If you look carefully, though, in both threads, there are still at least three others who have posts regarding this discussion (though, likely, two of those will be removed as they are off topic to the other thread).

    The post got deleted because it was offtopic for the thread it was originally in, not because it was inappropriate for the forums as a whole. After the posts got deleted, others continued discussing the topic, so, moving the discussion to a new thread seemed like the appropriate move, so that the people who do want to discuss it have a place to do so without cluttering up the original thread.

    With all due respect, if this thread is inappropriate, you should leave it up to the mods to take care of, and if you believe it is in violation of the letter or spirit of any of the forum rules, feel free to report it, and then, again, leave it up to the mods.
     
  10. TheIllustratedMan
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    TheIllustratedMan Active Member

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    Thanks, Arathald. I was also somewhat dismayed that the posts about this issue had been deleted, while the original comment stayed.

    Everyone absolutely needs to use condoms unless they are in a committed relationship where all parties involved have been tested and are "clean". It makes no difference what form that relationship takes, if you don't know for a fact that you are not infected with a sexually transmitted disease, use a condom.
    And yes, before anyone asks, this goes for lesbians as well. They do make protective devices for that situation.
    As I'd stated in my (deleted) post in that thread, condoms serve multiple purposes, not all of them physical. There are psychological issues that come into play as well.

    Everyone needs to play safe.


    ETA: if those posts were deleted for some other reason than being off-topic, please let us know. But please don't allow the original comments to stand on their own.
     
  11. Forkfoot
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    Forkfoot Contributing Member Contributor

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    Could have been resolved with a PM. I'm pretty sure any gay men with access to a computer who can read English are going to know what AIDS is and how to prevent its transmission.
     
  12. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    You'd be surprised at how much misinformation is out there and about how many people believe it. There's a reason that AIDS and STD education is considered extremely important in preventing its spread.

    Frankly, all of these this-shouldn't-be-a-topic posts are off topic to this thread. If you want to discuss them, please start your own thread rather than hijacking this one.

    I don't think it's appropriate to go around posting in threads that the topics are worthless and shouldn't be discussed. You don't do that for other topics, so why are you doing it for this one? Is it because some of your are uncomfortable talking about sex and homosexuality? Am I not allowed to speak my mind here, as long as it is within the forum rules? This is dangerously close to social censorship.

    Clearly, I am not the only one interested in this topic, so let us discuss it, and leave us alone of you don't want to.
     
  13. Forkfoot
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    Forkfoot Contributing Member Contributor

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    You are absolutely free to speak your mind here, broseph. Guess I'm not allowed to speak mine.
     
  14. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    You're speaking your mind by hijacking this thread to say I shouldn't speak mine. As I said, you're free to discuss this, just please don't hijack this thread to do so.

    If you start a new thread about this, I promise not to post in the thread just to say the topic is worthless and shouldn't be discussed, because that would be rude and inappropriate of me.
     
  15. Forkfoot
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    Forkfoot Contributing Member Contributor

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    Saying you "shouldn't speak your mind" is not the same as saying I don't think you need to go and start what is in essence a call-out thread.
     
  16. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    I'll remove the name of the original commenter in my first post in this thread, if that makes you happy. That's not what this thread is about. I made my intentions for this thread very clear.

    Also, if calling someone out for a post is inappropriate, how come you can do so, but I can't?
     
  17. Forkfoot
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    Forkfoot Contributing Member Contributor

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    I've never made a call-out thread of any sort, anywhere. Not sure what you're on about, homie.

    I'll stay out of your thread if it bothers you so; not sure it will get much traffic if people aren't allowed to do anything other than give you a thumbs up and a high-five for your OP, though. Goodnight.
     
  18. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    Your posts were at least as much of a call out as making this thread. If I could have handled my issue over PM (I already gave good reasons why this wasn't an option), you certainly could have handled your beef with me creating this thread over PM.

    The issue is that you're not discussing the topic the thread is about, you're posting in it to say that this thread shouldn't exist. Your posts are off topic to this thread. Your first post started out talking about the topic (despite being misinformation), but you quickly turned that around to use it to say that this thread shouldn't exist.

    I don't know how to read this other than a blatant double standard. Don't ask me to handle issues privately if you're unwilling to do so.
     
  19. Forkfoot
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    Forkfoot Contributing Member Contributor

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    Sigh... whatevs. I'm off to bed.
     
  20. Elgaisma
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    Elgaisma Contributing Member Contributor

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    Not all gay men are tarts - many gay men are highly educated. A gay male in a long term committed relationship with a clean partner is highly unlikely to catch AIDs, pregnancy or any other STD.

    All things being unequal gay men have to worry about stds but not contraception. So it would depend on the male if you are a total tart, gay or straight and dipping in every pond, then you need a condom. If you are not then a straight man in a committed relationship still needs to consider pregnancy or get snipped :) Like Forkfoot says most gay men that wander onto a forum about writing are going to able to read and look at information and make their own mind up about when it is worth it or not.
     
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  21. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    Right, I'd agree with all of that, even the very last sentence. The problem is that, unfortunately, most =/= all. Unfortunately, sometimes, even the smartest of us believe the stupidest things :/

    I wouldn't necessarily say that gay men tend to be more highly educated (I know you're not saying this, but, intentionally or not, your first paragraph can be interpreted as implying that), I think that gay men who happen to have gone through that kind of formal education are more likely to end up in environments where they are comfortable being out and expressing themselves, so that gay guys that people more often see tend to be the ones who are wealthier and more educated. I know several gay guys who come from more modest backgrounds and who aren't as well educated. Being on the internet these days doesn't mean that someone is educated. Anyone in a developed country can get on the internet at a public library, even if they're dirt poor. The most at-risk gay guys are the ones living in poor conditions, afraid of being exposed, so they never get to talk so someone about these issues. This forum has a rather wide audience, and I'd rather not assume anything about any of the people who read posts here.
     
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  22. Elgaisma
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    Elgaisma Contributing Member Contributor

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    How many highly uneducated gay men are seriously going to be wandering round a writing forum ?

    I'm not assuming anything but do think in a developed country (not everyone here lives in one I will admit) if anyone hasn't got the message that tarting yourself around without a condom is dangerous whether gay or straight is being stupid, and no matter what anyone on here says are going to continue to be stupid. If they are already doing it they are not going to believe you. If they have chosen not to they won't be swayed by the other statements. You don't have to be that well educated.

    STDs and using a condom isn't a gay issue it's an everyone issue. Talking about protecting yourself whilst having sex is not the same as coming out. I come from a council estate - and no gay men of all backgrounds. The same people that don't use condoms as gay men are in the groups of people who have teen pregnancies as well as stds. Ads, TV ads etc have done nothing to prevent the stupidity. The rest have made a choice knowing the risks.

    Where I think this kind of discussion can be counterproductive is it keeps it as a gay/straight issue. Simple message should be if you do not trust the person you are having sex with protect yourself.
     
  23. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    Again, even in the USA, there are a *lot* of underprivelaged young people who may have never been informed of such things. There are a lot of common misconceptions out there. Just about all of them will have the ability to access the internet somewhere, at least at a public library, and who knows if some of them have an interest in writing? There's also a lot of common misconceptions even in middle- and upper-class environments, especially for people who grow up in families or areas that shy away from ever talking about sex. That happens a lot more than you would think in the US. Obviously, there's at least one person on this forum who isn't aware that this behavior is risky. I'm not just saying it is, I'm providing links to places where people can start educating themselves about these things.

    The last thing we would want to do is affirm the misconceptions, which is the entire reason I wanted there to be some response to the comments in the other thread. I was happy for that response to stand on its own and not carry any further, but between others commenting and the mods deleting all of the responses and leaving the original post, that ship had sailed.

    True on both points, but the issue originally raised was specifically about gay sex, which is why I was focusing on that specifically. There's a fairly common misconception that condoms are only for birth control, not STDs, and, under that misconception, it's gay individuals who are more likely to go without protection. Even though talking about sex isn't the same as coming out, closeted gay guys are often less likely to find someone they can talk to about these things, because they either have to come out to that person, or they have to talk about heterosexual sex, which is a bit weird for some gay guys to do.

    This isn't meant to be a gay/straight issue, it's more of a matter of condoms protecting against STDs. It just happens to have shown itself specifically in the case of gay guys here, and, as I said before, because there's no risk of pregnancy, the misconception is more likely to affect the rates of protected sex for gay couples than it is for straight couples.

    Edit: You know what, I'm going to edit my original post for anyone who finds it through the link in the other thread to make it look less like a gay/straight issue. Perhaps it does look more like that than it should.

    Edit 2: Ok, maybe this thread is unnecessary, maybe its extraneous and no one who reads it will ever learn a single useful thing from it. What's the worst that could happen? We get another dead thread. However, on the off chance that someone sees the post and is able to educate themselves on using condoms to avoid STDs, then what's the cost of one thread compared to that person's health or their life? I just can't understand why this is getting such a negative reaction. I'm a software developer, and one thing we do in design is a cost vs benefit analysis. The cost of this thread is trivial, if you ignore it, as you should if you have no interest in it. The potential benefit is huge, and even though it might not hit its mark, I felt that there was more than enough chance to make it worth responding to the comments.

    If you can justify to me that the cost of this thread (to the community, my cost is my own business) exceeds its potential benefit, notwithstanding the posts you chose to make in response to it, I will gladly admit that it's pointless, and even personally request the mods to take it down. If you can't show me that the thread isn't worth having, then please stop saying that this thread shouldn't exist, because, in that case, we've already established that you have no logical backing for that claim. (Elgaisma, this wasn't as much towards you; we don't agree 100% on this point, but at least you've been civil about it and actually discussed it. The point, however, remains the same -- what's the worst that could happen if this thread stays up?)
     
  24. LordKyleOfEarth
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    LordKyleOfEarth Contributing Member Contributor

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    Arathald, I never meant to convey the idea that you have no right to express yourself. I simply meant to point out that everyone (or 99.99% of people here) agrees that condoms are good things to use (even when religious or personal views prohibit their use, I think we can all agree on their utility). I simply wanted to point out that this thread is just going to be a bunch of people who agree with you; what is there to really discuss?

    If you want to make a general statement/advisory that will hang around for a while, I'd recommend using the site's Blog Feature. People can comment there and Blogs are largely unregulated by the mods (so they are much less likely to remove content for not being appropriate for a given section).

    A private message to the person you disagree with would also be a good route, since there is a good chance he/she will not return to that thread, or this one.

    We are all on the same side here buddy; I'm just trying to help you out.
     
  25. Arathald
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    Arathald Contributing Member

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    The blog isn't a bad suggestion, I hadn't thought of that.

    As I previously said, this message wasn't directed only at the person who originally posted the comment. For all I know he was trolling; PMing him wouldn't have accomplished what I thought needed to be accomplished.

    Just because the thread is likely to be nothing but agreement doesn't mean it's not worth making a thread over, I can make a thread with nothing but "Puppies are cute. Discuss." in it, and that doesn't mean it would be a worthless thread, though maybe it wouldn't interest you.

    You did come across as basically saying the thread is pointless and I should have never started it, taking over the thread to try to make that point. Again, you would probably not do that for just about any other thread you don't believe is worthwhile, you'd just ignore it. Why treat this one any differently? Clearly, there were at least a couple of others interested in discussing this, so what's wrong with having a thread for it? Honestly, I feel as if I were trying to have a discussion with someone else in a public place, and someone unrelated to the discussion stood between us and started talking about how our conversation isn't worth having. I'm happy for others to join the conversation, but doing it in that manner isn't very respectful. Granted, this is marginally less disruptive to the conversation than my hypothetical situation, since we can visually separate out the actual topic in here.
     

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