Is it bad being competitive?

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Charisma, Dec 29, 2014.

  1. plothog

    plothog Contributor Contributor

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    Being competitive is fine, but if you want to do it overtly it's probably better to compete with others who wish to be competitive. Some people love being competitive and some people can't stand it.

    Your friend gave very strong hints that he didn't want to be competitive over grades by not sharing his, but you chose to ignore that.

    By all means aim for the valedictorian award. There's nothing wrong with that. Just accept that your friend doesn't want to treat it like a race.
     
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  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think, in the long run, competitiveness works against happiness. It may contribute to external success, but not internal joy.

    Competition can give brief highs when you win something, for sure. But as soon as that moment is over, you have to set a new goal, find a new competitor, and start all over again. You have to chose whether to challenge yourself by competing against someone who might be better than you, or play it safe and compete against someone you know you can beat. If you take the first option, you risk being unhappy when you lose; if you take the second, you won't be growing or learning as much.

    Better to challenge yourself. Try to do better than you did the day before, without reference to external competition.

    I'm reminded of Andre Agassi's autobiography, in which he repeatedly said how much he hated tennis. He was externally successful, but also highly competitive, so he was MISERABLE every time he lost. And the impression I got from the book was that he was essentially an unhappy person the whole time he was playing, and only got reasonably happy after he retired.

    (PS - my impression of the incident you related is that your colleague did NOT do well on the quiz. You were badgering him for a mark he didn't want to share b/c he was upset about it. I don't blame him for being terse with you).
     
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  3. Charisma

    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    Makes sense. I've already done that, I guess at my end I didn't really see why he was being so fussy about it.

    True. Ultimately you can never prove nor be better than everyone else. True happiness is not contingent on where you stand with respect to others, but where you stand in your own perspective. Otherwise, all successful people (a vague category, but for the sake of argument) would be prosperous and happy, which they are not.

    Also, just to note, he did do well on the quiz; he got full marks. XD But I guess what @plothog and couple others said is somewhat true--maybe he doesn't like being competitive. Granted, a few days before this incident he jokingly suggested I forgo the departmental award for that major (I have two majors, like I stated in an earlier post), that way he could have the departmental award. So he's not entirely noncompetitive, but I guess not as much as I can be! I just didn't like the way he said it to me. Instead of demeaning me, he could just calmly stated he didn't like sharing his marks, or being competitive, or talking about this with me. But then, he's a bit moody so there's that.
     
  4. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    I hate competitions. It's one thing to push yourself to be better than you were earlier, but it's another to compare yourself to someone else and feel pride because you 'don't suck'.

    I'm excellent at writing term papers, but that hardly makes me top dog. The guy who didn't write a good paper probably excels at things I suck at and I could learn a thing or two from him. Competition strokes the ego, which is a very dangerous thing to do. It's a primal beast that, if left unchecked, can destroy you and those around you.

    He wanted you to leave him alone, you persisted. What else was he supposed to do? I would've acted just like him were I in that position. Life's not a race to see who sucks and who doesn't, it's not about seeking self-worth from external sources like trophies or high grades. At the end of the day, they're just bits of metal glued together/red ink on a paper. What really matters is finding self-worth from the inside and learning from those who, yes, likely suck at things you excel at.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2014
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  5. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    This, I think, is essentially right. It's often funny how people can be competitive about everything. I've seen it my entire life, both with fellow students and with my own students too. The grade itself is not everything. I'll not lie and say it's not important either, however.

    I know people who got lucky with their degrees and got firsts when they admit they should have got 2:1s. I saw student a last year, not one of mine, who clearly knew his stuff and yet could not write an A-level essay for toffee. Mind you, with the new guidelines of having to reference the question over and over and over in each paragraph, I'm sure I couldn't write an A-level essay myself without wanting to stick my head in a river of lava.

    But on the flipside, I don't think people should take too much comfort in stories of mavericks like the Bill Gates of this world who dropped out of higher education and went onto to found Microsoft. Yes, he dropped out of further education, but he dropped out of Harvard, not nowheresville's adult training center. The reality of the world is that you need what is marketable, and grades can prove you have what it takes for an employer to let you on, but there are many other things that come into play in your potential employability.

    The classical world gives us some wonderful examples of what a society based on extreme competitiveness is like (and take a wild guess at just who I'm alluding to) but those societies (dare I say polis) existed at a time when life was a literal fight for survival. If you did not thrive you were soon to die. Things are much different now, which is good news for someone like me who isn't by nature competitive. I'm the sort who would much rather snooze by a river than test myself to outrun the horizon.

    But, do we owe the person who does want to outrun the horizon something still? The world is made up of all sorts of people, all contributing to mankind's uni-verse, the story of our development as a species. They are the ones who soon find out what is beyond the horizon while trying to run toward it.
     
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  6. stevesh

    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Lots of earnest advice here but I wonder about the practicality of most of it. Your two majors suggest the possibility of careers in academia, and there is no more competitive venue in the working world. Biotech also seems a likely major for someone who wants to start her own company. Again, the tech start-up field is extremely competitive when you're looking for funding.

    I can't address the feelings of your classmate, but as long as your behavior isn't all in-his-face taunting, I think your competitive attitude is perfectly normal for a high achiever and will serve you well down the road.
     
  7. Fitzroy Zeph

    Fitzroy Zeph Contributor Contributor

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    Because your friend is annoyed at you and you think you're having fun. Something is wrong. If you are as good as you say, people will be extremely jealous of this fact. Self-effacing behaviour should be the norm. Try congratulating your friend without ever mentioning your own accomplishments. He may end being your boss or co-worker someday and good relationships are also a part of how others view you. Arrogant dicks within a work group, no matter how good, can stymie a project. Look at this way: if gaining a good relationship with friends were marked as part of your overall GPA, you'd be down to a 3.5 now and your friend would be laughing his ass off at you.
     
  8. stevesh

    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Exactly. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the shrinking violets here who insist that everyone defer to everyone else at all times. Your behavior you described in your original post seems perfectly ordinary to me in a circumstance where you are, indeed, competing. It was your classmate who overreacted.
     
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  9. Charisma

    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    I think you're making more assumptions about me and my friend that my post suggests or entitles. No to be rude, but I couldn't care less if you think me an arrogant dick, but since I do think you're just making jumps from my abstract of what happened and not being ignorant, I'll elaborate the points I feel you have downright wrong.

    Firstly, if he's my friend, I should feel comfortable sharing my successes and failures with him, as should he. If I can tell him I flunked Math, I can tell him I aced Sociology. It's not about being a prick; why the hell is he my friend if he can't handle my successes? And it's not like I'm going to him and saying "I aced this, you dumbass. HAHA!" I never said that, and it's silly to assume I did.

    Also, you seem to imply I don't have a good working relationship with others, and that somehow I go around telling people how I'm better than them, and so I end up eating alone at the cafeteria. I'll admit, I'm introverted and I don't socialize in large groups, but I have close intimate friends whom I cherish and trust. Just because one of my friends, who is also extremely good at studies btw, otherwise he won't be in the valedictorian race to begin with, got pissed at what I said, doesn't mean I'm generally a pain in the neck. I mean, I could be a real arrogant pain in the neck, but I don't think what I said allows a reasonable person to make that assumption. It's rather irrational, imo.

    Thanks for the post @stevesh, at least someone didn't make me feel like the bad guy XD I won't say the other posters are entirely wrong in the sense that I should've backed off when he dropped hints he didn't want to talk about it, but I do maintain that he didn't need to be rude in turn. And yes, your explanation does cover my motivation--I don't care to or intend to demean my colleagues, or friends, it's really just about getting ahead in a highly competitive field. I have a goal in mind, and I want it, and I'm willing to work for it. I don't think that's shameful or petty, just ambitious and passionate.
     
  10. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I hope I never made you feel like a bad guy. My posts are never as judgmental as they might seem on first reading, I mostly don't care enough to judge. I would, and have, done exactly what you did many times before - but my age affords me a certain objectivity, and I tend to be good at seeing things from both perspectives. (I say 'age', I'm only 24).
     
  11. Charisma

    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    Don't worry, it is my understanding that your posts are usually neutral and don't really purport a particular position; not to say you don't take a stand, more like you express your opinion and knowledge without trying to tell the other person it's right or wrong. It's a rather intelligent tactic, and I don't know how I sound in my posts but I think it's a valuable feature for anyone who wants a rational debate. My father once said, rather emotionally, that neutrality is prophetic. XD
     
  12. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I think I'm going to make this my motto from now on.
     
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  13. Fitzroy Zeph

    Fitzroy Zeph Contributor Contributor

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    You asked, I answered, but not what you wanted to hear.

    You're right, you're a great guy and your friend overreacted a little to your kind and well thought out gestures. And yes, it's okay in the context of your methods to be competitive.
     
  14. Charisma

    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    Many people in this thread said things I didn't want to hear. What I didn't like was that you made unfounded assumptions about me.

    Also, not a guy. :)
     
  15. Fitzroy Zeph

    Fitzroy Zeph Contributor Contributor

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    That would help explain things. :angle: I'm always perplexed and female/female relationships.
     
  16. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think it is a matter of being a shrinking violet (Stevesh) or anything of this nature. I think the central issue is this: If your behaviour is irritating someone then perhaps you should consider why. If you come to the conclusion that it is all their fault, your behaviour is above reproach and they are just overly sensitive then that is fine, don't modify your behaviour and accept the fact that irritation may turn into an irreparable breakdown of your relationship over time.

    In an interview Hugh Laurie once gave a great method of discovering if you are in the wrong; he basically said that if you don't know who the arsehole in the room is, you're it.
     
  17. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    I would take the thing at face value - your friend is tired of comparing grades all the time. Doesn't make either of you wrong - it just means he's over it. If you value the friendship, you'll accept that. If you want to feel 'wronged', you'll make it a character flaw in your friend.
     
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  18. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    @Charisma - Hey, looking back at my post I wanted to apologize if I made you out to be the bad person here. You should be proud of your accomplishments; I hope I didn't sound like I was demeaning you. Yes, your friend probably would like to not compare his grades to yours, but it's understandable that you'd want to show off your accomplishments. I know I would. His reaction is understandable, but with hindsight, I think he probably could've just told you politely he wasn't interested.

    Keep being competitive! It's actually okay to be competitive, just don't get cocky about it (same with anything else, really.)
     
  19. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    @Charisma just curious. If a classmate came up to you and said "you have a 3.9 [insert second digit here ], that's kind of easy considering you're just studying biotech and psychology. I'm studying mathematics and physics, and I have a 3.89." How would you feel?
     
  20. Charisma

    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    It's alright, no need to apologize. Your tone did seem a bit harsh to me, but I don't think you should have to apologize for it, otherwise we would just keep forcing others to comply with our opinions and ideas. :) Like I said, I don't think anyone should condone looking down upon others in the name of competition, and I guess I wasn't keen to his hints, otherwise I believe I would've backed off.

    Nothing? He may be right. He may be wrong. What about people who have to work along with college? I don't need to work to pay for college, the only time I've worked is for extra money to blow off, tbh. I'm the youngest, I have no responsibilities (except babysitting my nieces). So a person with 3.92 and me with whatever CGPA greater than him, who has to work for his tuition, has to take care of his ailing mother, has suffered abuse in childhood and has a lower IQ than me, is technically better than me because he's making most of what he has than I might ever be able to. But then, I can't know that, and honestly it doesn't matter, because everyone has their own struggle, and they work for what they find valuable, and they decide what makes them good enough. I guess that covers it.
     
  21. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Well he would be right because math and physics are definitely harder but that's neither here nor there.
    Your responses I think are pretty obvious you're not a jerk at all. Keep working hard and good luck with the race. Youll have to treat your friend like he's sensitive, that's all. Maybe get him a hot water bottle and some ice cream.
     
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  22. obsidian_cicatrix

    obsidian_cicatrix I ink, therefore I am. Contributor

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    Can I just say for the record, I haven't a competitive bone in my body, and I can't abide one-upmanship. I wasn't the kind of kid that would look up from my test paper, to see what the other kids were making of it, never mind one for marking my successes by the failure of others. I once very nearly pulled out of a promotion race, because my leading competitor for the job was a friend. It was a forgone conclusion one or other of us would get it, and I knew how much it would mean to him to land the post. Then my brains rather than emotions kicked in, and I thought better of it because he is competitive. There would have been no pleasure in his getting the post simply because I chose to throw the towel in for his sake. To him the race was important. To me the job was.

    How we avoided unpleasantness was simply to avoid talking about it until it was done and dusted. Our aspirations whilst the same, stemmed from very different sources. We valued our friendship too much to risk it by playing games with each other. I leave that for situations were less is invested, like trash-talking over a beer while playing pool. In my opinion we did the best thing given our differing perspectives. We simply let our work speak for itself, with no analysing on either of our parts.
     
  23. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Who is saying any of this? Did you hallucinate posts in this thread?
     
  24. stevesh

    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Huh. I would have expected better than this from you.

    My comment was partly in response to your lecture to @Charisma about the relationship between competition and happiness, partly in response to the multiple posts personally criticizing the OP for what was obviously an overreaction from her classmate (personal attacks, which I thought were frowned upon here, and for which I have been threatened with administrative action), and, I'll admit, partly in response to a sort of flashback to a thread where I was hooted at for the blatantly obvious suggestion that, as fiction writers, we are all in competition with one another. The oh-so-superior disdain for competition (or profiting from one's efforts), gets dreary.

    Fact is, to paraphrase Norm from the sitcom Cheers, "It's a dog-eat-dog world, and we're all wearing Milk-Bone underwear." Competition can, and usually does, improve the performance of all participants, and @Charisma, and any other high achievers, or others who aspire to more than what the conciliatory crowd (including the violets I referred to) are inclined to allow them are/will be better off by adopting a more competitive attitude, even if the suggestion gives many here the vapors.
     
  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    No, this is exactly what you can expect from me.

    It really feels like you're dragging a lot into this from whatever other thread you're referencing. I haven't seen anyone in this thread doing any "hooting", no one seems like a wilting violet or as if they're suffering the vapours - they just don't think competition is valuable.

    So, you disagree. Fair enough. Do you have any evidence to support your idea that competition usually improves the performance of all participants? Or, maybe more relevantly, can you elaborate on whether you think "performance" is the only thing we should be worrying about?

    I have personally found that getting competitive, especially about writing, makes me unhappy. I have a new book released, it does well, but it doesn't do AS well as someone else's. Instead of focusing on the "it did well" part, I'm focusing on the "not as well as someone else". I've turned a positive into a negative. Way to go, me?

    (If you've had trouble with being accused of personal attacks in the past, maybe try to address the ideas under discussion rather than making the ad hominem attacks - we can disagree with each other without you calling me a shrinking violet with the vapours or me calling you a-- ah, no, stopped myself!)
     

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