Is said dead or is everything else?

Discussion in 'Dialogue Development' started by Sennett, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    Eight characters in a scene whoa, you've got your hands full. I agree with Tenderizer and Elven Candy. I'd even extend and work in some action as it's always hard to imagine eight diverse characters doing anything in unison, even standing and staring at something amazing.
     
  2. DeadMoon

    DeadMoon The light side of the dark side Contributor

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    I'm with Stephen King on this. Now and again something else may work but the the most part "said" works just fine.

    "I hate my job!" she screamed
    "I hate my job!" she said letting out a Banshee like scream.

    To me the second option reads and sounds better.
     
  3. Elven Candy

    Elven Candy Pay no attention to the foot in my mouth Contributor

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    I like the first one better, but I don't particularly like the term Banshee-like scream, either. How exactly do banshees scream?
     
  4. BC Barry

    BC Barry Member

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    Thank you for the suggestions!!

    No, where they're standing doesn't matter. I think I was just trying to show that he was between them, which was obvious if they both shoved him and not necessary, as you said. Thank you!

    “D-d-do you see...” he asked in disbelief.

    “Yeah.” Dorn's excitement rang through the word.

    “That is the most amazing thing….” Wide-eyed, Bane's jaw dropped open.

    “It's so shiny...” Calt said softly with greed gleaming in his eyes.

    “Is it real?” Taka asked, something something.

    “We're lookin' at it, aren't we?” Macon demanded.

    “What is it?” Dorn asked.

    Josu stared, his mouth opened and closed a few times before he could finally force the words out. “The other side of the wall.”

    Taka glared at Josu. “You never told us about that, ya muck!” and shoved him hard, causing him to stumble into Dorn, who shoved him back.


    I don't like aghast either, now, and it doesn't go with Taka's suspicious, everyone's out to get him attitude, but I'll change that later.

    If you don't mind me asking for more clarification and/or opinion. The first one had mostly non-said thingys and the second has (hopefully) NO non-said thingys. You don't think the second one slows down the conversation or feeling of they're almost talking on top of each other in their excitement? I feel that they need descriptions to show what they're feeling, as each boy is slightly different. And these are simple village boys who use stone knives to cut their food, they aren't going to give long speeches to express themselves. Maybe?

    And, actually, it is a children's book, pre-teen age. But also a learning tool for me. And I thought this one conversation seemed to take in most of what everyone was saying on this thread. Hopefully, I haven't high-jacked the thread.
     
  5. BC Barry

    BC Barry Member

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    Thank you. It's actually only 6 boys, the first line is by Josu. And there is action before and after this, this is just their initial reactions at seeing something their people had been told for generations they'd never see.

    I knew I'd used a lot of what some people said is okay to use, while others said to absolutely not use. And wanted to learn through the responses of both sides.

    :)
     
  6. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    In general, the piece communicates "Reader? I don't trust you. I think that you're really very, very stupid. So I'm going to explain most things twice."

    > “D-d-do you see...” he stammered.

    The stammering is evident in the D-d-d. No need to tell the reader again. It's redundant.

    > “Yeah.” Dorn gushed with excitement.

    Is this sarcasm or did he really gush with one word? The argument has been that the non-said tags make the emotion clear, but this is unclear.

    > “That is the most amazing thing….” Bane began.

    The dash tells us that he was cut off; the tag doesn't have to tell us again. It's redundant.

    > “It's so shiny...” Calt breathed softly.

    Again, beat or said. But "breathed" isn't entirely redundant the way most of the others are. However, 'softly' is indeed redundant with 'breathed."

    > “Is it real?” Taka asked, aghast.

    "aghast" sounds indignant, angry, offended. That doesn't seem to match with the words. It introduces ambiguity. I'd go with a beat here.

    > “We're lookin' at it, aren't we?” Macon demanded.

    'demanded' offers no information that isn't offered by the line itself. It's redundant.

    > “What is it?” Dorn asked.

    Question mark followed by 'asked'. Redundant.

    > Josu stared, his mouth opened and closed a few times before he could finally force the words out. “The other side of the wall.”

    This is OK. No tag, no redundancy.

    > “You never told us about that, ya muck!” Taka declared from where he
    > stood on Josu's left, then shoved him hard, causing him to stumble
    > into Dorn on his right who shoved him back.

    This is a "terror of the word 'said'" sentence. And it's not even necessary, because you can eliminate the tag altogether"

    “You never told us about that, ya muck!” Taka shoved Josu from the left. Josu stumbled into Dorn, who shoved him from the right.
     
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  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    The second one speeds up the conversation and increases that feeling of rapid speech. I think that you're assuming that twice as many words gives the impression of twice as much time, therefore slower action. But it really doesn't work that way, until you've added paragraphs, rather than just a few more words. The "let's decorate each line differently" tags were distracting, and therefore eliminated immersion in the scene, and therefore slowed the scene down. With them gone, the scene goes much faster.

    Edited to add: There are some errors in the rewrite--for example, a literal reading tells us that someone's jaw has eyes. But the rewrite does read faster and it's more immersive.
     
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  8. mrieder79

    mrieder79 Probably not a ground squirrel Contributor

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    I like said. Tags are like ninjas. You shouldn't see them as they do their dirty work. Obtrusive tags drive me banannas. I actually skip tags whenever possible, preferring to attribute dialog through scene-enhancing statements. Sometimes, though, tags fit best. When they do, said is my mainstay.
     
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  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I meant to respond to this. "Said" doesn't mean, "words came out of his mouth with no emotion." It just means, "words came out of his mouth." It doesn't tell you what the emotion is. The words, or sometimes a beat or a description or some other thing, tell you what the emotion is. "Said" is perfectly legitimate for a line of dialogue with any amount of emotion.

    He said, "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

    To me, "gushing" is not primarily about tone, but also about the quantity of words. When someone is gushing, they tend to go on and on and on. So when you had a one-word line of dialogue, with "gushing", I thought that you were being sarcastic.

    A possible rewrite:

    "Yeah!" Dorn's voice squeaked with his excitement.
     
  10. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    “D-d-do you see...” he asked in disbelief. << BC, you've got to trust your readers! We can tell from the dialogue that he's in disbelief. Don't tell us twice.

    “Yeah.” Dorn's excitement rang through the word. << Reads super awkwardly to me. I'd use a beat, showing Dorn's excitement.

    “That is the most amazing thing….” Wide-eyed, Bane's jaw dropped open. << Cartoonish. Do you need both? Wide-eyed is enough for me.

    “It's so shiny...” Calt said softly with greed gleaming in his eyes. << You don't need the tag (said softly) AND the beat (with greed gleaming in his eyes).

    “Is it real?” Taka asked, something something. << Cut the something something. 'Taka asked' is fine.

    “We're lookin' at it, aren't we?” Macon demanded.

    “What is it?” Dorn asked.

    Josu stared, his mouth opened and closed a few times before he could finally force the words out. “The other side of the wall.”

    Taka glared at Josu. “You never told us about that, ya muck!” and shoved him hard, causing him to stumble into Dorn, who shoved him back.

    For me, neither version makes me think of them talking on top of each other in their excitement.

    Descriptions to show what they're feeling are good, but what you're doing is telling us--as ChickenFreak said, you're treating your readers as stupid.

    Now, to be fair, we're all writing adult fiction and you're writing middle grade. But I don't think an average 10 year old who's into books needs the extent of repetition and telling that you're giving them.
     
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  11. BC Barry

    BC Barry Member

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    Sorry for the slow reply. I've re-read this entire thread, then re-read my entire WIP. And re-read the short story I've already self-published. And taking notes, this thread alone has filled three pages of my notebook so far. :)

    Luckily, Maddy's Tail (my published book) has very little conversation as it's mostly what the cat is doing and thinking. I'd hate to have to tell the people who already have my book, umm...nevermind. Try this one instead. :) I have two other books I wrote years ago and are now with my "editors" busily being destroyed, so I'll be looking at them with a new light when I get them back. Same with another two from years ago that I'm happily ignoring for now....or forever.

    As I said, my current work is a very rough first draft, mainly just trying to get the action and feel down before I forget it. I don't like some of the words (aghast) either. And I don't like an 11 yr old boy saying amazing, but I've yet to invent a term for cool. I personally like gush, but I see what everyone is saying and will probably change it.

    But I honestly never understood the difference between the types of tags and have never heard of a beat. And this has been a huge help to me. I knew what I preferred to read, as I stated before. But didn't realize how I actually write until I read it again after this thread. Most (not all) of my conversations seem to have no tags at all (if I'm understanding the logistics of it correctly), which surprised me. Here's one example.

    Josu stopped in his tracks and turned towards Taka. He tried his hardest to keep the irritation out of his voice. "What exactly do you mean by that?"

    Taka walked to within a few steps of Josu before planting his feet firmly on the ground. "Y0u know exactly what I mean. You lied to us! You know you did! You've been lying all along!" His voice had gradually grown louder and louder with each word until he was nearly shouting.

    Bane quickly stepped between the two boys. "Easy now, we don't have time for a fight. And you both know I'll win."

    The repetition and redundancy....yeah, I do a lot of that. I'm going to have to work on that.

    Thank you for the input and for clearing it up for me. I think I have a better understanding of the concept and reasoning behind everything everyone has said. But I am still curious as to what the other side of the debate thinks about it. :)

    This is fun!! (I know, I have no life.) But really wish I'd found this site a couple of months ago.

    Thanks again!
     
  12. BC Barry

    BC Barry Member

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    Dear Sennett,

    "I seem to have kidnapped your thread and sincerely apologize for that. I promise to return it unharmed now that the proper ransom of an amazing learning experience has been paid." I gushed excitedly and enthusiastically. :D

    Sincerely,

    Your friendly neighborhood dork.
     
  13. BWriter

    BWriter Member

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    I haven't decided whether i agree with it yet but I was told that "said" is all I should need. My lecturers tell me that good writing will convey how something is said and nothing else would be needed. They also claim that readers tend to skim over the tags. I am not sure I buy into it but they gave me some thing to think about, which is all they were trying to do I think
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think they're right on all counts. There are exceptions, but they should be rare, in my view. If a reader isn't skimming your tag or viewing it as pretty much invisible, then you've drawn attention to it. That interrupts the normal process of reading dialogue. It's not a matter of never doing it, but of deciding whether and when you want to do it, not doing it unintentionally by using a lot of ham-fisted dialogue tags.
     
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  15. SoulGalaxyWolf

    SoulGalaxyWolf Active Member

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    I mix things up as well. I like using tags besides 'said' and also using action to show what character is saying what. I would use 'said' every other time I use dialogue.
    I read somewhere that had the dialogue without any tags, but it was pretty obvious who was speaking. I would say you don't have to use any tags if it's an argument or one of those things were children bicker amongst themselves.

    Sara grabbed a toy that was close by from Sam, and he protested.
    "Hey, that's mine!"
    "No, it isn't
    "Yes, it is!"
    "No, it isn't."
    "Yes, it is!!!"
     

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