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  1. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    Is There A Problem With Third-Wave Feminism?

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Oscar Leigh, Feb 28, 2016.

    Okay, so my position is this; feminism if about equality; defending women from sexism, is good. It's a civil rights movement, I'm into that. But I think there are too many modern feminists with bad priorities, a lack of adherence to evidence, counter-sexism against men, or a generally too aggressive fanatical approach. Now I'm happy to hear argument about examples I put forward; ideas, events or people. And I welcome anyone who thinks there's not much of a problem. As I like to say; "please disagree with me."
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
  2. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    You haven't actually offered any details.
     
  3. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    Discuss what we were talking about before. That's the point of the thread. If you want me to remind you; the three things I mentioned I take issue with are manspreading, the wage gap and gamer-gate.
    I think manspreading is not about gender and even if not justified by balls is just normal rudeness.
    The wage gap I am very suspicious of because I've heard/read a lot that suggests it does not account for more than gender, at least in the most quoted study. There are a lot of things that can affect your wage, saying that because the extremely broad-brush averages are different it's discrimination is wrong. You need to prove that the other factors like women's personal choice tendencies and raw chance didn't generate that broad average distance.
    Gamer-gate was originally about game designers sleeping with the people reviewing them. People were raising concerns that this might not be ethical, due to bias concerns. The Anita Sarkeesian and others like came in and accused people of slut-shaming and attempting to stop women getting power in gaming. The all the sexist harassment that people talk about came in. And everybody forgot it was about corruption, not gender.
    Discuss these opinions as you will.
     
  4. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    Why would I care whether men take up multiple seats in public transit because they're sexist, or because they're rude and entitled? They need to cut it out. The exact, precise nuances of the cause of their sense of entitlement is really not my problem. I don't need them to go to psychologist for a diagnosis, I need them to put their knees closer together. I know they can do it; men sit next to other men in tourist class in airplanes all the time, and I have yet to see one hauled out by paramedics.

    For the wage gap, you're asking me to assemble both my case and your case. No, thanks; you need to do your half. I'm similarly uninterested in assembling both cases for GamerGate. Both issues probably involve enough facts to fill a tractor trailer, each and every one of which we could debate endlessly. Not interested in those two debates. Somebody else might be.
     
  5. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    Okay. That's a little disappointing about the other two. But my point about manspreading is that it shouldn't be a feminism issue and shouldn't be portrayed as part of "the patriarchy". Yes, it's a bad thing to take up more room than you need. But it's not really civil rights, just manners.
     
  6. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    You're investing an awful lot in the exact, precise nuances of why some men are entitled jerks on the subway. I fail to see how this means anything at all about feminism. If women feel that women should be able to occupy seats on the subway without constantly defending them from men's invading knees, I don't see how that fact is a sin of feminism, or a sin at all.
     
  7. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    But my point is that it's not a feminism thing so you're right it isn't anything about feminism. But some feminist make it about feminism.Which is my problem. Not everything that happens to women because of men is a sexism thing. So to me it's a manifestation of the over-aggressive, over-analysing cultish behaviour of extreme feminists. There's no problem with complaining about it, but it shouldn't be feminism that holds the entire argument. Also, have you heard of she-bagging?
     
  8. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    Before you start insulting feminists, it would be good for you to support those insults with, well, something. So far you have presented general examples with nothing whatsoever to back them up.

    No, I haven't.

    Ah! There was also the assertion that women should see catcalls as compliments. Do I recall that you were just fine with the scenario of your middle-aged English teacher making comments about your body, and whistling at you across the parking lot? This would make you feel happy, warm, and secure, right?
     
  9. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    No, there's no way I would insult feminists. I have great respect for civil rights movements. That would be terrible. Equality all the way. I'm insulting some feminists. :p'

    Anita is one of the best examples. She called the accusation she had fabricated some of the harassment harassment. And this: "when asked by ABC News why there was so much anger, she responded "I think it comes from this idea that gaming is a male-dominated space, and that games are for men by men...it's a very misogynist backlash". :mad::mad: She's such a cop-out. Not only is her obsession with her own victim-hood mean everyone criticizing here is associate with the harassment, but she encourages that. And her claims are pretty shody. She might have a point on some things, but it's drowned out by a lot of over-analysing and assuming in my opinion. Everything is through the lens of the patriarchy.

    And I didn't say you should necessarily be happy. Just that you should recognize the complimenting nature. I said that I would be awkward and uncomfortable in that situation. Especially awkward, that's the kind of thing that brings out my shy, insecure side. But I would be happy that people think I'm attractive. I also said, about catcalls in general and the example, that there are plenty of ways it can be too crude and intrusive and make you feel a bit harassed. But I refute that it is always a problem and especially that there is something essentially sexist about it.
     
  10. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think men have no place to tell women what does and doesn't offend them, just like they have no place to tell a woman how to dress or how to control her own body.

    The truth is, you're still a child, and a male at that, so you can't even begin to know the struggles women go through. You don't know the first thing about the pay gap, which has been proven despite your claim otherwise. You don't know the first thing about sexual harassment and catcalling, which is NOT a compliment, no matter how often you say it is or should be. You don't know the first thing about how women have been stereotyped and molded and "should be" this way but not that way "because we said so."

    We can't be stay-at-home moms because it's too traditional and shitting on feminism, but we can't be working moms either because who's going to take care of our kids, strangers? We can't dress sexy and have sex because then we're sluts, but we can't dress modestly and not have sex because then we're prudes, but we also can't dress sexy and NOT have sex because then we're a tease. We can't be CEOs or career women because men are intimidated by strong women, but we can't be assistants either because then we're OBVIOUSLY sluts who sleep with the boss, but we can't have normal jobs either because then we're peons with no goals and "don't you want to have a career?" We can't walk down the street without getting cat called by men who see us as objects, and if we like it, we're attention whores, and if we don't like it then we must be sexist prudes who don't know how to take a compliment. We can't be vocal because it makes us sound too "bossy" (see bitchy) but we can't be quiet either because then we're doormats. We can't wear makeup because we're trying to get attention and "we look so much prettier without it," but we can't NOT wear makeup because then we don't care about ourselves. We can't shave our legs because that means we MUST want someone to see it, but we can't NOT shave our legs because then we're unhygienic.

    We can't have our periods without men blaming everything on it (see bitchy), we can't have abortions without men having some say in it (I mean, hello, it's my body), we can't have a job without men getting paid better at it, and we can't be feminists without men sticking their nose in it.

    What are you trying to achieve here? What's your agenda for discussing this? Trying to prove that feminists are all over-emotional and over-aggressive? Why, because we want to be treated equally, don't want to be viewed as objects (which is how catcalling makes us feel), and want to be able to do whatever we want without having people judge us because of our gender?

    Well my suggestion to you is to just drop it. Because in my (extensive) experience, men who try to argue away the validity of our claims, who try to put down feminism (even the "worst" of us), or who try to tell us how we "should" feel, are often sexists just trying to "put us in our place." So either make a point, a good point, or let it go. Because you aren't looking good here.

    I'm starting to see why someone blocked you.
     
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  11. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    And you should really do your research on the sexual harassment of Anite Sarkeesian before you call her a cop out. She went through some pretty awful harassment, and to insult her for bringing a serious issue to light is not flattering.
     
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  12. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    I like to keep my legs as tightly pressed together with my feet tucked under the seat when I'm in enclosed spaces. No one -- man or woman -- should have to also deal with climbing over Mt. Human to get to where they need to go. :p

    At any rate, OP, you and I are guys. We should probably listen to the ladies and attempt to understand their struggle because I don't think it's cool being treated as an amble sex doll, or be paid less because they lack a pecker. Or be told two completely different things and to generally be told, "you should be ashamed for even existing a woman!"

    I don't know what you're trying to argue, but realize that we're men, you and I. There are things we can't possibly know unless we actually listen to the ladies. And don't clump them all into this easily-clump-able label of "Oh, they all hate men!" 'Cause that's not what the word means. It means equality for both sexes. Know how society treats men? Yeah, women want that too. Women want to have the choice to do whatever they want without society going, "Well, you suck because women are supposed/not supposed to do xyz!"
     
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  13. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    The over-generalizations and lack of supporting evidence is starting to give me flashbacks to numerous interactions I had with GamerGaters, many of which (but not all mind you) really did present as misogynistic jerks barely post-adolescence.
     
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  14. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    You've made mention of being part of the LGBT community elsewhere here in the forum. What I would ask is that you draw a comparison.

    A long while back I participated in another thread on feminism here in the forum where I professed my frustration at trying to wrap my head around the concept. I was even mildly cuffed by another member who told me "You know, you could have just googled and found out what it is."

    Um, that's exactly what I had done, and that's exactly what led to my frustration.

    No two professed feminists giving opinions on feminism seemed to be in sync. All I found was disagreement and a sense that whatever flavor of doctrine I settled on as the real thing, I would find a bevy of other feminists standing to my left and to my right, all with their arms crossed in front of them, all with the same look of disaffected disappointment, eventually one of them saying to me, "You couldn't be more wrong if you maliciously tried." And if I were to take up the doctrine of the one who had just made that accusation, all that would happen is that a different feminist with a different doctrine would speak up and say the same thing, etc. etc. etc.

    And I really wanted to understand because I don't want to be that dickhole representative of the patriarchy.

    And what was worse is that I had come across an article (and then several articles) discussing the profound sense of disappointment many feminists felt at some words that Joni Mitchell had to say about modern-day feminism. You may be too young to know or care who Joni Mitchell is, but she is easily one of the most important modern musical artist of the 20th century, and the very definition of a self-possessed human being. She is a force of nature. She is mythical and magical. Her words create new emotions.

    And she's not impressed by modern-day feminism.

    And that really threw me for a loop.

    But...

    I thought about my own community, the LGBTQ community, and if there is one thing that is true about us, it is that we are absolutely NOT a homogenous community. We do not all want the same things. We do not all think the same things. There is constant infighting and separation into schools of thought. And these separations are guided by gender, age, nationality, religion, political lean, and every permutation and mix of the aforementioned.

    People talk about "The Gay Agenda".... ha! Sorry. There is no such thing, and not in the sense that most people say that there's no such thing. I mean, that even if we wanted there to be such a thing, there couldn't be, because we cannot agree in the least as to what that agenda would be. Are there agendas in the LGBTQ community? Of course! Every community has agendas, but the agendas in my community are as varied and counterposed as the stars in the sky. And even the fact that I would say such a thing, trust me, there is a camp within the community ready to call out my heresy, repudiate me, rescind my Gay Card, and shun me.

    And that's when it clicked as to why feminism seems to be such a nebulous concept to grasp for me. Why would I think it's any different in the community of Feminists, a community that felt let down by the icon that is Joni Mitchell, when even in my own community, of which I am a member, there is ZERO consensus about pretty much anything.

    My point to that diatribe is that you are asking about something that I feel is not one something, but many, many, many different somethings, so how can there be any answer?
     
  15. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Guess it just goes to show you that even within a particular 'group', each and every member will have his/her own opinion on it. Lumping everyone within that group into a "They all think this!" label is not correct, and sort of -- if not wholly -- offensive. I'm 80% deaf, but I don't go to Deaf Pride (Link: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=deaf+pride) movements and say that the hearing should kowtow to us, etc. The same is true for other groups (ie, Black Lives Matter, LGBT+, Feminism, etc.)* Everyone has their own idea of how things should go, and lumping them together into one batch is dangerous.

    * IMPORTANT * : OK, before anyone has a heart attack and flip all the shits, I am aware that being deaf is in no way comparable to the struggles faced by blacks, women, and the LBGT+ community. I was just offering an example of a group I've heard of that I could actually relate to because I'm mostly deaf, and using that as an example. We cool? I don't need to get the defibrillators?
     
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  16. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    There's plenty of disagreement within feminism. Just the basic theoretical gap between liberal feminism and radical feminism is significant.
     
  17. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    Why the caveat? The Deaf Community is a community. It has a culture, literature, and unique to it, it has its own language (in fact, many languages). And I know for a fact, through interpreter friends who serve the Deaf Community, that there is profound disagreement within the community on some topics. Cochlear implants and other such technologies are seen by some in the community as an affront to the community's integrity and validity as a thing. Even the topic of teaching deaf people to speak creates camps of disagreement. And the one thing I can understand is that since I am not a member of the community, since I am a hearing person, my grasp of why these disagreements engender such emotional engagement by deaf people is an understanding I can only approximate, and never truly understand. I do not walk in those shoes, so to presume to know is crass.
     
  18. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Exactly. I just wanted to make that clear that as a white, cisgendered, heterosexual male, all I can do is attempt to understand, so to presume I know what y'all are going through is offensive. The reason for the caveat is because I didn't want to presume that deaf people--

    --and there are deaf blacks, deaf ladies, and LBGT+ people who are deaf. Deaf people exist in all walks of life, not just among white guys.

    Someone give me a gun, I'm gonna shoot my mouth off some more.
     
  19. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    If someone who belongs to a particular group (whether they're deaf, females, black, LGBT or whatever) tells you what their life exoerience is, the only sensible thing to do is listen to them.
     
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  20. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Thank you. You're truly a better writer than I, and I'm not attempting to mock you. If someone belongs to a group that you're not a part of, and they tell you what their life has been like, all you can do is listen because to tell them how they should feel is disgustingly offensive.
     
  21. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    @Link the Writer Yes. You might have questions for them or disagree on policy, but telling them their experience isn't what they say it is seems foolish.
     
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  22. 123456789
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    Oscar, your concerns as a young male are not so uncommon. If you're a westerner, I understand you're bombarded with these sort of "third wave" feminist comments in the media, in school, and probably with your friends, and it can be frustrating, and, (I know I'm going to upset people for saying this), it can and probably will start to feel a lot like nagging.

    All I can say is you need to know how to listen to your own heart and make up your own mind about things. Presumably you have female family members, female friends, and a proportionate number of people whom you respect, who also happen to be female, like most people do, and, being part of the 21st century, you don't believe any one demographic should be submissive to any other (except, apparently, many Americans still think we should be submissive to the rich establishment and their rich families, but that's a different thread). Other things, like "mansplaining," or "manspreading," fall into the category of nagging, and I suspect that that's what brought you to make this thread.

    Look, men attack women when they resent them. It's true. But women also attack men when they resent them, hence, "manspreading." Right now, it seems like there's a winning strategy that is being primarily incorporated by one party. My advice to you is to remain civil in public, and even on internet forums like this one. Don't waste your time rocking this particular boat, because it looks like people are finally getting tired of it. Listen to your own heart about what you think is fair, and, for the love of god, never let a feminist tell you how to be a man. This is by far the worst part of the new feminism movement, trying to shape the opposite sex. Listen to your instincts, not peer pressure, and you've already won.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
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  23. T.Trian
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    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

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    @Oscar Leigh, a friendly piece of advice: when you start serious threads where you make claims, especially such incendiary claims as you have made here (I'm not disputing or supporting any of your arguments here, btw), it's a good idea to make a habit of:

    -state your claims clearly
    -present verifiable evidence when available, e.g. here you could have linked to articles/videos debunking Sarkeesian with hard evidence (e.g. some of her assertions about Hitman Absolution, gamers as a demographic etc.) instead of just asserting things yourself without presenting evidence to back up your assertions (I don't think even most pro-GG people deny she's gotten a shit-ton of harassment because it's so well documented)
    -make evidence-backed rebuttals even if others respond with mere opinions or assertions without any evidence (again, not commenting on anyone here, just speaking generally)

    I know that can be a lot of work, especially hunting for and wading through potential evidence, and I'm far from perfect in this regard, but I believe it's a worthy aspiration.
    The more you do it, the better you get at finding evidence, and the easier it gets to back your arguments with evidence because you'll eventually wind up in discussions where you can reuse the same evidence from a previous thread. You'll know from experience where to find the evidence when needed. E.g. I have compiled a long list of gun facts, I'm still adding citations to it for ease of use, but at least I have seen the evidence and can hence tell people where to find it, e.g. if it's an FBI or CDC study etc.

    Just something to consider because while this is definitely an extremely flammable subject, I believe it's possible to have a rational conversation about it if baseless assertions were left out, claims were backed with evidence, and emotions were locked out of the discussion.
     
  24. ChickenFreak
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    Sarcasm withdrawn because the remark in question was moved to the other side of the line.
     
  25. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    I've been trying to figure out the vibe that I got from the original post of this thread, and now I've gotten it. This thread is about how many women are apparently (in the view of the poster) Wrong, very Wrong. When an adult tries to tell another adult or group of adults that they're wrong, they would normally put some work into their assertions, gather evidence, give detailed examples. They would do their share of the work. That's the minimal respect that they provide as an adult to another adult.

    Either the poster feels that feminists don't deserve that respect, or the poster doesn't know how to frame an argument. I suppose the second is more likely than the first, but this is an argument where respect is vital. Edited to add: AT LEAST the minimal respect of doing some of the work of the argument, rather than signalling a vague displeasure and waiting for the other side of the argument to scramble to be more pleasing. That level of respect needs to be added.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
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