I've been told I have *too many* gay characters!

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by dracodomitor, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. Sileas

    Sileas Member

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    I probably don't have anything original to add to this discussion, but for what it's worth....

    Agree a bit with Oscar and Link. Sometimes things exist together. Nationalities have their tendencies and values. Japanese honor, German precision, American capitalism, Russian stoicism, etc. Handling it delicately would be required, though.

    I personally would treat an LGBT (wot's Q?) exactly the same as any other character. The only way you'd find out that Max was gay is when he said "Uhh....lemme ask the hubby. He might have plans already." I wouldn't start the story out with "Max, who is gay...." Why? Why should this matter? K, if you're writing a romance, maybe, but.... *shrug* So there might be a story with a lot of LG etc types. Might be a story with a lot of lesbians. So what? There are certainly stories with lots of straight people. One group did it, so can the other.
     
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  2. KokoN

    KokoN Active Member

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    This quote here tells me 100% that you should ignore the comments these people made. They are clearly ignorant thinking that most people are white. Only a white person would say "most people are white" (or an alien from outer space who does nothing but watch American TV). First, pretty sure most people in the world are Asian, just saying. It is true that most people in the U.S. define themselves as being white, but how many people of what race a person knows completely depends on who they are and where they live. Last summer, I was in a city with a high percentage of African Americans. If I lived there, I would probably know a lot more African Americans. If I wrote a story based in that city where everyone was white, that would definitely be inaccurate. It's all about perspective.

    I don't know how many people are straight or LGBTQ+, but I would assume that again it's a matter of perspective. I don't know very many people who are gay, but I would be willing to bet that if I were gay, I would know a lot more. In sum, don't let someone who seems really biased dictate who your characters should be.
     
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  3. terobi

    terobi Senior Member

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    Actually, this is one that annoys me. Can the internet in general stop assuming that the entire world has the same population demographics as the US?

    The US might under-represent black people in media (I believe black people make up around 40% of the US population?), but the UK has a white population percentage in the high 80s. Less than 15% of the UK population is non-white, and of those, the vast majority are of Indian and other south-Asian extraction. "Black" people make up less than 5% of the UK population (and rather a lot more than 5% of British TV roles) but for some reason British TV shows still keep getting slated for not representing American demographics. It's maddening.

    Personally I like to use different demographics according to the different societies I'm writing. In real-life, different countries have different demographics (though very few are as homogeneous as often portrayed), and fictional countries should be no different.
     
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  4. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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    This is something that does need to be noted, I think. Continuing the UK example, because I'm also British, in my high school year of around 120 students we had two black people, for a total of five or six POCs.

    My current novel, being set in the UK, in my hometown, being entirely white is not unrealistic, as some might say, especially considering that I have fewer than ten described characters. I could have written POC characters regardless, but by not doing so, I'm not quashing the reality of Burtonian demographics or pretending POCs don't exist.
     
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  5. KokoN

    KokoN Active Member

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    Yeah, that's why I distinguished between the U.S. and the world. I didn't know that the UK got criticism for "not having US demographics" as you say, interesting point. I obviously have no response to that, being an American, but thanks for bring it up.
     
  6. doggiedude

    doggiedude Contributor Contributor

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    I think just for the sake of being contrary I'm going to say that maybe you are overdoing it. Of course since I don't know the actual story I can't be sure. One possibly important thing you haven't told us is if the work you're talking about is something for yourself or something you want to publish. You could easily find yourself being pigeonholed into the LGBT category even if that's not what you meant to do at all. So, if you're writing for yourself then fuck 'em. Do what you like, express what you feel. If you're looking to be a profitable writer you may want to rethink things.

    Before people start bitching at me about the popularity of LGBT books please don't. I'm well aware that the genre has exploded in the past couple of decades, However, if the author is seeking to write about something totally unrelated to the topic he/she could find themselves with a very limited audience.

    From the more recent novels I've read there have been a noticeable increase in LGBT characters. I think it's a reflection of modern society. Someone writing stories forty years ago might imply a gay character but would be much less likely to come right out and say it. For me, every time I read a novel and run across a gay character I have this instant thought cross my mind ... Of course the author needed to include someone who's gay.

    In real life I couldn't care less what a person is, where they came from, or what they do in their own world. If doesn't affect me I'm pretty apathetic to the issue. In a story I have issues about unrealistic situations. I love sci-fi & fantasy but make things rational. Make your characters act like real people, make the situations realistic and for the love of god stop with the totally impossible coincidences.

    So .... in conclusion if there's a rational reason for there to be multiple people who are gay in your story then fine. If your characters are a group of 10 random people that happen to meet up in a broken elevator and four of them turn out to be gay then maybe not (unless the point of your story is to focus on the LGBT thing).
     
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  7. Holden LaPadula

    Holden LaPadula Member

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    (This is coming from a loving gay person, just for the record....) It really depends how you develop the characters and what the story is about. If the story has strong underlying social themes and plot lines, the sexual diversity might be necessary. If that is not the case, I don't really see the need to develop the sexualities of 20 characters, gay or straight, unless it is ABSOLUTELY pertinent to the story. You would basically be cycling through 20+ characters listing,
    gay...straight...straight...pan...gay...bicurious...straight...asexual...gay...straight...straight...lesbian...gay...lesbian...straight...bisexual...straight...gay...straight...

    I'm sure you didn't write it anything like that, but I hope you understand my point. There isn't enough diversity in literature so overall, keep it up!! :)
     
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  8. JadeX

    JadeX Senior Member

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    Personally, I tend to be a bit more hard-line on the issue of LGBT characters than most people are (despite being gay myself).

    In my opinion, I'd much rather see straight romance in fiction than gay or lesbian romance, because it just seems that the latter is constantly shoehorned into everything just to please the Tumblr-dwelling SJW crowd (who also tend to treat the former as if it's somehow "oppressing" them).

    Really, any romance in fiction should ideally serve some purpose in the story, but LGBT romance better serve a really really good and justifiable purpose (and no, just to demonstrate "this character is gay, look how diverse my characters are" is NOT a "good purpose").

    If a story can function with characters who are all straight, or otherwise unspecified sexuality, I think it should just be kept that way. I'm sick of seeing it shoved into everything just for the sake of "diversity". I'd much rather see REALISTIC than "diverse".

    It really annoys me when I see LGBT characters or situations where they don't belong. Great example - does anyone here watch "The 100"? The forced lesbian relationship between Clarke and Lexa had absolutely no bearing on the plot, no relevance to the story arc, yet the writers felt that they had to include some arbitrary 5-minute make out scene on at least two occasions... like, excuse me, there's a literal freaking war breaking out, can we get back to the real action please?

    And it's equally ridiculous with male gay characters. The BBC seems to love this, they can hardly go a season in any show without having two dudes tonguing each other at some point. Like the season 1 finale of Torchwood, they damn near turned it into a gay porn, and for what purpose? Yeah, Captain Jack will fuck anything with a pulse, WE GET IT. (the most hilarious part is that the scene in question was at 1940s military club, and while Captain Jack vanished into a portal afterwards, it's very likely that the guy he was just slurping faces with probably would have been beaten to a pulp afterward.) And their miniseries "The State Within"? Only 6 episodes, and a lot of story to tell, but instead of writing what could have been grade-A political drama, they veer off into this completely irrelevant gay relationship subplot... for literally no reason whatsoever.

    So, yeah... in my opinion, don't arbitrarily include LGBT characters when they aren't needed. It just comes off as condescending pandering, often detracts from the story, and sometimes can be downright insulting. Really, nobody actually cares that much about diversity. And the ones who do complain about such a thing are typically the kinds of people who will always find something to complain about anyway.

    Just write your story. You don't have to include every single demographic group there ever was, that's beyond absurd. Just write it, and if the story doesn't call for characters of any particular minority, that's fine. If you find yourself going "Oh no! I don't have any gay characters in this scene, I must fix this!" - then you're doing it wrong. Don't try so hard to satisfy the career complainers - you'll never satisfy them and you'll just drive yourself insane attempting to (I'm looking at you, Tumblr and Twitter).

    [/EndRant]
     
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  9. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Really? :bigmeh:

    Guess this is why un-travelled folks annoy the heck out of me.
     
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  10. doggiedude

    doggiedude Contributor Contributor

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    I admit it. I'm a straight white male. If I'm not given a description of the MC that's how I view them until proven otherwise (and sometimes even after being proven otherwise). I can't recall what book it was but I remember reading something and only finding out after re-reading it that there had been a description of one of the characters as a black man. I couldn't picture the character that way since I had already formed a white character in my head.
     
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  11. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    You people make me sick with your straight lifestyles, your wives, your childrens, and you think everybody the same, pasty cheese face. Some of us are fucked up, mental y'know, and proper fucked up, I am
    old, forty-five, next year forty even more six, next time we speak, probably fifty. How do you think that feels you mental, hetero, metrosexual, ffs?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2016
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  12. King Arthur

    King Arthur Banned

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    I once saw people complaining about how Tolkien was racist for not having any black characters. And a sexist since "there aren't a lot of women in Lord of the Rings."

    Guess they forgot the ending of the fifth book.
     
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  13. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I'm 46 tomorrow, Matt. You just called me old. :bigmeh: :-D
     
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  14. ChaosReigns

    ChaosReigns Ov The Left Hand Path Contributor

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    This has probably been said already, but if your piece works with that many LGBTQ+ characters, don't change it, most of my main cast is also under this banner as well, and it suits the novel's I'm working on, not because its there all the time, but its enough to help with the plot line
     
  15. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    @Wreybies I am really sorry about that, boss, buddy [swoon].

    Whenever I see '70, '69, or '71 0r 2, even, I know these are 'special people,' my people, nobody understands us, but still can't get my head round 46.

    ...Me too, in a couple o' weeks - as you know when you compiled statistics on-line, this morning probably, it is the final straight [apols], just think I am a sprinter, can see the light, [can] feel it in my boner.
     
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  16. Wayjor Frippery

    Wayjor Frippery Contributor Contributor

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    Tight, grimaced, cigareete-smoke-ring-stains-on-the-ceiling-at-three-in-the-moring-what-will-the-landlord-say? mad like a popcorn.

    Like that, I imagine.
     
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  17. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    :cheerleader: Happy early birthday, Wrey! :D :cheerleader:

    As someone once told me: Don't put something in the story just for the sake of having it in the story. I think you've summed it up quite nicely. :) Though I'm of the disabled group (half-blind and mostly deaf), I agree with this sentiment. I would rather people not shoe-horn in a random disabled person into their plot all just to satisfy the disabled community. If that person provides nothing to the plot, and is just there so the author can go, "Look at me! Look at me! Look at how diverse I am!" then the person doesn't belong in the plot.

    Do what your story calls for, regardless of whatever physical attributes your characters have. Gay/not-gay, white/not-white, man/woman, disabled/not-disabled, it doesn't matter. Do what makes sense for the story, not to appeal to overly-sensitive people like the ones from Tumblr and Twitter.
     
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  18. King Arthur

    King Arthur Banned

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    One of my characters breaks his leg permanently so that he becomes viewed as weak and useless (no offense, but people with a faulty limb were before modern medicine/tech) and develops and changes as a character.
     
  19. croak3r

    croak3r Member

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    I agree with JadeX, if them being gay has nothing to do with the story then it should be left out. I havnt labeled any of my characters gay or straight and if the reader decides for themselves that one is either then thats fine.

    Also i'm not saying OP is doing this, but i really dont see why people want strive for 'diversity' in their books. I dont see how it does anything but limit what the author can do.
     
  20. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not saying I can't have multiple of a group. It's just it won't fit if I did it for all of them. If I made a bunch more red-haired women like Misty there'd be space issues. There might be done random single-scene character or small guest character who is also a red-haired female. But I'm not going to try to get the maximum representation for each group within the character population when I have other concerns. That's too far for the sake of diversity, and is not only getting in my way, it's also often unrealistic. How many people with Alopecia Universalis do you know? I'm so going to do another three character with that to avoid some oversensitive idea Max is pigeon-holing or stereotyping them just because he's the only character with it.

    But diversity IS realistic. And secondly, it's interesting. It makes character's different. And thirdly, maybe that example "The State Within" is trying to be a romance subplot. If they focused purely on literal politics, and all the most important actions there, you'd be boringly one-trick pony, you'd get minimal elements of character exploration, and ignore the fact that no event type is isolated. Intelligence work, mafia life, working at a supermarket, being a UN interpreter. None of these can avoid being relevant to other things, and other things being relevant to them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2016
  21. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Well, in a country like America that's true. But yes, the largest racial group is Asian. So many Asians. China is overpopulated sooo.
     
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  22. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    It's been my experience that for some authors, it's like there's a metaphorical gun being pressed into their heads. “Include these groups into your story, or you're a racist, sexist, homophobic bigot!!! Oh, don't have someone in a wheelchair, or blind? You're a shallow person for hating people who are disabled.” Instead of just writing what feels natural, they bend and contort their plot to include every possible group they possibly can in the hopes that no one who reads it would get offended.

    There's nothing wrong with diversity, but what happens is that some authors aren't doing it because it feels natural, but rather out of some paranoid feeling that if they don't, they'll be labeled a bigot, see what I'm saying? To them, it's “I must not be a bigot, so, uuuhh...here, a gay guy! Or a blind black chick!! For reasons that may not pertain to the plot, but still!!” when it really should be “Aaah, so nice to have a natural story where my characters are the way they are because they fit the plot and the narrative I want to tell.”

    It's one thing to have diversity because you wanted it that way and it feels natural. It's another to shoehorn them in because you are doing it out of fear of looking like an offensive asshole.
     
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  23. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I feel like there's a bit of a strawman coming up with the idea of "shoehorning" a specific character who "adds nothing to the plot" into the story.

    Of course we shouldn't do that. I don't think anyone, ever, has said we should do that. Have they? If they did, they were wrong.

    But characterization is generally considered a fairly important aspect of telling a satisfying story, and sexuality, racial background, sex, or other aspects of diversity can be important parts of characterization. If the author decides a certain character is edgy and smokes too much and picks at the nicotine stains on her fingers when she's nervous, then mentioning those things may not directly advance the plot, but it does contribute to characterization, which makes the plot more satisfying. Same goes for any other aspects of personality, including those that would be covered by the label "diversity".
     
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  24. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Well, how often does it really matter to the plot though? The only time being gay really matters is because of a coming out of the closet or homophobia issues subplot/main plot. I think it's patronizing that being straight can be incidental, love interest that could be guys/girls, and indeed guys/girls who could still have a hetero romance and be bi. But gay romances have to be relevant. I think it's an issue that too often gay character are either involved in gay-related issues, stereotypes or both. And too often only get main character when it's to some degree about being gay.
     
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  25. croak3r

    croak3r Member

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    Good point. It's like how people complained about there not being black people in some of Tolkiens works, but if that's how Tolkien wanted his world then i dont see a problem with it. Perhaps that group of people never immigrated there, or simply dont exist. It was a bit offputing when they deliberatly added black people to the film just for diversity sake.
     

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