Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System

    Knife stigma

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by NeighborVoid, Mar 3, 2016.

    Why are people so darn terrified of knives? Are they simply scared of the unknown, or is there a legitimate reason for all the controversy and widespread banning of these tools?

    Hammers and writing utensils can just as easily be used as a weapon You know those tiny little hammers that are just a bit bigger than your palm?
    image.jpg
    Looks like a tool, right? That can easily be used as a covert impact weapon capable of delivering devastating blunt trauma. Those $1 bic ballpoint pens could just as easily be used as a kubotan or spike. That's where "the pen is mightier than the sword" comes from. /sarcasm

    Knives are generally banned in schools, but nobody bats an eye to a kid carrying a pair of scissors - which are just two knives stuck together with a screw. One can literally sharpen a pair of scissors in less than 10 minutes using concrete such that the blade has an edge that's able to slice through paper without tearing.

    A knife is used for opening boxes and cutting paper. Its ability to be used as a weapon shouldn't be its defining characteristic.

    I swear, people treat knives like they're volatile explosives or something.

    I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, especially if it differs from mine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
  2. edamame
    Offline

    edamame Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    385
    Knives, like butcher's knives, are specifically used to cut meat/flesh and when I think of them, I don't think of chopping vegetables or cutting paper. Let's face it, you don't really stab into a piece of paper to cut it.

    As for scissors at school, children are taught specifically not to run with them and most of the ones available in elementary schools are of the plastic, blunt kind which would be hard to hurt you. You'd specifically need to sharpen it for the purpose of hurting someone, while a knife is already sharp.

    Hardly anyone looks at a hammer and thinks of bludgeoning someone. If you are thinking of using a pen to stab someone, then you are thinking of using it like a knife.

    "The pen is mightier than the sword" means communication and ideas are more important to change than violence or force, not that one kind of violence is stronger than another.

    How is a piece of rope different from a noose? Intentions and purpose. The everyday man sees the difference, the villain in a murder mystery thinks about changing one to the other. ;)
     
  3. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,583
    Likes Received:
    5,068
    I agree with @edamame - it's not so much that there's a "stigma" to knives, it's that there's no real purpose to them in a school, while there IS a purpose for the other things you mentioned. Knives are potentially dangerous, so if there's no reason to have one, people shouldn't have one. Same thing would go for lots of other potentially dangerous implements that aren't needed in a school - an axe is a very useful tool, but unless you're chopping wood, you don't need one, so if you carry it around people are going to wish you wouldn't, and if you're in a place where they have the power to to stop you, they probably will.

    Other really useful things that aren't allowed in schools (without special permission/dispensation): quantities of prescription drugs, gallons of gasoline, alpacas, beds, airplanes, tubs of molten iron, pitch forks, anvils, sides of beef... you get the idea. If something is potentially dangerous and there's no reason for it to be there, it's not allowed. Knives earn special mention because they're more portable and more likely to be brought to school, but that doesn't mean they're "stigmatized".
     
  4. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    Credit card knives, multitools, folding knives, etc.
    Cutting paper and opening packages with a knife is much faster than using scissors.

    If the issue of accidental injury were a concern, pencils would be banned because one might fall on one and stab themselves.

    Most of the fear of weapon threats come from adolescents rather than elementary school students. Knives are banned in schools because they are a concealed weapon, but sharpened scissors are far more covert.
    Yeah, people see a hammer as a tool. Hammers are just as deadly and concealable as knifes, but knives are never seen as tools.
    That was just a bit of sarcasm I decided to include in my rant.
    Intentions and purpose are dependent on the tool's user. A piece of rope can be used to tie a knot or strangle a person. A piece of rope configured as a noose can be used to hang a man or anchor a boat.
    And a person who is aware of these villains thinks about how such a villain would use these tools as weapons.
     
  5. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    It's mainly a matter of efficiency (and personal freedom).
    You don't need scissors to cut paper. You can fold the paper back and forth until the crease is weak enough for you to rip the paper in a straight line.
    You don't need a belt to secure your pants. Just get those elastic exercise pants.
    You don't need a scarf on a cold day. Just get a turtleneck sweater.

    Scissors can be used to stab someone. Ban that.
    Belts, especially the heavier ones, can be used as a flail. Ban that.
    Scarves can be used to strangle someone. Ban that.
    Elbows can be used to elbow someone.

    tldr : ban elbows.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  6. edamame
    Offline

    edamame Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    385
    I'm pretty uncomfortable with where this is going...is this a sly way of asking why guns shouldn't be allowed in schools?

    Anything can be used as a weapon but a knife is specifically used to cut into flesh and has a long history of being used for hunting and as a weapon.

    Scissors are much easier to use to cut paper than a knife. No folding needed. You can use a box cutter with a retractable blade that's safer. I don't have more than kitchen knives because I find these other tools easier, more efficient, and safer to use. There are credit card and paper shredders.

    If you don't see a difference between a scarf and a knife, then do you see a difference between a knife and a gun? State hospitals now have to allow guns in Texas because of their new open carry laws. Why would you feel the need to bring a gun or a knife into a hospital or school? An elbow jab isn't going to cause as much harm as an accident with a knife or a gun.

    *shrugs and backs away*
     
    Samurai Jack likes this.
  7. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    There isn't really a utility for firearms in schools unless it's supplied to the teachers for defense against a criminal intruder.
    That's exactly the stigma I'm arguing against. Knives serve a dual-function as tool and weapon, depending on its design; some designs are optimized for combat while others are optimized for utility - like bushcraft or everyday use. The hammer has also been adapted for warfare, but a tool's history remains irrelevant when discussing its current use. The GPS originated from the military, but do we regard it as an instrument of war?
    Folding? Why would I need to fold the paper? A properly-sharpened knife cuts through paper like butter.

    As for box cutters, the metal is so thin and segmented that I've had the blade snap multiple times in use. It's not even sharp enough to open a plastic wrapper without snagging. How is that any safer than a knife?

    I don't really see how knives are a safety concern; I've poked myself more times with a sharpened pencil than my knives.
    I mentioned those because they were convenient items that had the ability to be used as a weapon. The elbow thing was just sarcasm.

    The difference between a knife and gun is the difference between a wrench and sandpaper. They're different tools with different uses.

    Personally, I've encountered countless situations in school where I had to cut paper into little squares for flash cards. A couple of swipes with the knife would finish the job in less than a half a minute, but scissors required the user to cut out the grid manually. Folding the grid in half before cutting with scissors would just cause the printed ink to desync.
     
  8. edamame
    Offline

    edamame Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    385
    @NeighborVoid "Personally, I've encountered countless situations in school where I had to cut paper into little squares for flash cards. A couple of swipes with the knife would finish the job in less than a half a minute, but scissors required the user to cut out the grid manually. Folding the grid in half before cutting with scissors would just cause the printed ink to desync."

    You need to find better tools and stop trying to convince me a knife is the best option when the majority of people are perfectly adept with scissors. If you poke yourself that often with a simple pencil, I wouldn't trust you with a knife at school.
     
    BayView and Shadowfax like this.
  9. KaTrian
    Offline

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,564
    Likes Received:
    3,561
    Location:
    The Great Swamp
    I can understand people associate knives with death and violence because if you look at the tools used in violent crime, knives are pretty common, aren't they? Add to that the knife fights we see on TV shows, games, and movies, or, if we were given the choice to choose which tool to use as a weapon, quite many of us would choose a knife, the association starts to make sense. Knife = danger.

    Having said that, I use knives all the time and find them much more useful than scissors. I carry a multitool with me, which of course has a knife, and it's useful at home, work, and in my hobbies (especially at the horse stable). I peel oranges and apples with them (that's one thing that's really hard to do with scissors), open envelopes, packages, boxes, cut duct tape, loose threads, etc. I have a lot uses for the knife at the horse stable as well (cutting open feed sacks and rope, for example.), and I don't think I need to list why it's useful in the country when you go fishing or camping. At home, we've got a knife pretty much on every table 'cause they're so damn handy to have around.

    I'm used to handling a knife, but I know people who are absolutely skittish around common tools. In the countryside, you see kids who are comfortable and adept with knives and other tools, here in the city you see adults who can't peel a damn apple. I suppose they also think about stabbing people whenever they see a knife? :wtf:

    For me, a knife is, most of the time, the best option -- except for cutting nails. I wouldn't mind at all if carrying them around was legal in my country, I'd encourage it, actually. A girl who's learned to fight with a knife and has to use it to defend herself will get a hefty fine for protecting herself, and I think that's unfair.

    But I also understand that you have to draw the line somewhere, and fact is, knives are pretty useful for slashing, cutting, and stabbing. If I was allowed to carry something with me for self-defense (and a gun wasn't an option), I'd choose a knife, not a hammer or scissors. For one, knives are portable while I'd feel mighty stupid jogging with a hammer on my belt.

    It's true you can use any tool to hurt people. Last autumn, one rapist used a scarf to control and choke the girl he then proceeded to rape. "Axe murderer" is a thing. Murders have been committed with hammers. Cars kill more people than guns. Vending machines kill more people than sharks. But such comparisons are unfair because when we look at the stats, fact remains, knives are more suitable and more often used to hurt other people than hammers, axes, vending machines, cars, and sharks. I don't advocate banning knives (nor guns for that matter), but I can see why the powers that be may have thought it's a good idea.
     
    NeighborVoid likes this.
  10. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,583
    Likes Received:
    5,068
    There are absolutely places where knives are great and useful. And it's pretty rare for knives to be banned in these situations, and if they were banned I probably wouldn't engage in that situation.

    School isn't one of them.
     
  11. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    Because I'm going to carry a paper trimmer in my pocket.
     
  12. edamame
    Offline

    edamame Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    385
    It's absurd to me how people are so enamored with their knives and guns that they want to carry them everywhere. I have no problem if you want to peel apples in your own home or take a hunting knife to go hunting. But bringing it into a school or hospital? That's just a power trip to me. Let's say you are a competent adult and you are safe to be around, well sooner or later, someone is going to carry a knife or a gun who isn't. Do you honestly think a scarf is as deadly as a school mass shooting? *laughs*

    Utility is a false argument. We do have tools. You do NOT need a knife to cut paper when five-year-olds can use plastic scissors and are coordinated enough to use them. There is a place for knives and that is not in schools or hospitals or in the library, etc.

    People do not feel safe around you when you carry knives and guns around you all the time. The real reason why is because you feel like it and damned if anyone else doesn't like it. No one believes a person who pokes themselves with a simple pencil can handle a knife no matter how "useful" you claim it is.
     
    Link the Writer and BayView like this.
  13. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    Criminals don't care whether or not something is banned. Do you think that a school shooter would be deterred by a sign saying "no firearms allowed on school grounds"?

    Banning something only takes it away from people who abide by the law. When alcohol became illegal, it only moved underground. It became unregulated and invisible.

    I'm not sure what you mean by power trip though. I don't think anyone asserts their dominance over cardboard boxes and plastic wrappers.
     
  14. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,583
    Likes Received:
    5,068
    But when someone is caught with a knife or other dangerous weapon, we need to be able to exclude/punish them, and we can't do that if weapons are allowed.

    "Banning something only takes it away from people who abide by the law," if true, would mean there's no point in any sort of laws, wouldn't it? Banning murder only takes murder away from people who abide by the law... ?

    And you need to stop thinking of knives as being ONLY for cardboard boxes and plastic wrappers. In fact, I expect you already think of them as being for more than that, or you wouldn't have this attachment to them. People don't collect and get attached to simple tools - they collect and get attached to tools with a mystique to them, tools that are something more than just tools.
     
    edamame likes this.
  15. Link the Writer
    Offline

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    11,199
    Likes Received:
    4,209
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Knives belong in only two places: the kitchen and on a hunting trip. I know it looks gritty and badass to open up an envelope or cut through paper with a steak knife, but really? Why? Plastic scissors can do the job just fine, and unless you're a surgeon, the sharpest cutting tool you're gonna use is a scalpel, and that's for performing an operation. We have tools. We don't need to use a knife to cut a paper Dora the Explore out of a coloring book, or a knife to help us conduct an open heart surgery.
     
    edamame likes this.
  16. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    Yeah. Knives are like iPhones to me. There's the appeal of aesthetics, customization, and craftsmanship.

    I know knives can be used as a weapon, but screwdrivers and wrenches can also be used as a weapon. Why don't we ban those?
    Except with knives, it's never enforced as a preventative measure in schools. If it's meant for safety, why are people able to sneak in knives so easily?
     
  17. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,583
    Likes Received:
    5,068
    If school admin knows someone has a knife, school admin will do something about it, at least where I am. People can sneak in knives because we don't search students, but... that doesn't mean the rule does no good.
     
  18. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    Even with steel scissors, those plastic packages with the reinforced edges are an absolute pain to open. I know I'm not going to encounter these specific situations every day, but your most useful tool is going to be the one you currently need.

    We don't need half of the stuff we're carrying. We don't need smartphones or clothes (depending on the climate). Why do people own sports cars capable of reaching 140mph if they're never going to drive that fast?
     
  19. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    If someone had planned on hurting someone else with that knife, they would have done so long before the admin found out about the knife. A person who is ballsy enough to assault someone probably wouldn't care about laws regarding the possession of the weapon used in the assault.
     
  20. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,583
    Likes Received:
    5,068
    But it's not all about the planning - that's the problem with casual access to weapons. A person might not PLAN to assault someone, but they get angry, and they do it. If they have a knife at the time, the assault will likely be much worse than if they didn't have a knife.

    And I'd really have to challenge your idea of assault as a "ballsy" move. In my experience with teenagers, the ones who start fights aren't in any way more courageous than others, they're just more out of control.
     
  21. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    They use the knife as a weapon because they see it as a weapon. If one saw a sharp pencil or hammer as a weapon and had immediate access to it in a fight, they'd use it.
     
  22. BayView
    Offline

    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5,583
    Likes Received:
    5,068
    But most people DON'T see those things as weapons, and most people DO see knives as weapons. Seriously, this seems like you're kind of making my points for me...
     
    NigeTheHat and edamame like this.
  23. edamame
    Offline

    edamame Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    385
    @NeighborVoid Yes, back to the elbow argument. Because psychopaths who see a writing tool as a weapon really should have access to knives and guns? You are completely illogical and I'm glad you are banned from bringing knives into school.
     
  24. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    Yeah. It's kinda circular. Knives are seen as a weapon because it's banned. It's banned because people see it as a weapon and use it as such. Vicious cycle.
     
  25. NeighborVoid
    Offline

    NeighborVoid Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Planet Earth, Origin System
    Criminals have access regardless of the law.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page