Lack of "strong" female characters?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by senkacekic, Mar 12, 2011.

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  1. bumblebot

    bumblebot New Member

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    I recognize there are specific exceptions such as situations like this. I cannot completely comprehend life from the point of view of a pregnant woman either, and I am a female. But there is a lot more to everyone than those two examples, and most of that, I feel we have in common, such as generally desiring things like belonging, understanding, success, fulfillment, companionship, security, and so on. I'm not trying to seem as though I am insisting you write female characters, I just don't think women have thought processes as inscrutable as you are making them out to be. Our characters are products of the experiences we create for them. Female characters do not have to inescapably and universally react differently than male characters, because it depends what we have put them through and how we feel that should make them relate to the world.
     
  2. Ion

    Ion New Member

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    I find that men and women exaggerate the differences in thought between the genders. When you have three sisters, a mom and step-mom, seven aunts, and a dozen female cousins that you see multiple times per year, you get to seeing that guys and girls aren't as foreign to each other as they think they are.

    Like you said, both men and women want the same things. Sure, maybe women are a little more sensitive, men a little more egocentric, but it's not to the degree that it overcomes the natural variation between individuals.

    I know guys more concerned with how their friends think of them than most girls I know. I know girls who like a good action movie more than most guys I know.

    The only difference I find in writing for female characters, apart from the different way in which they may have been raised or are perceived by society, is that I put a bit more emphasis on intentions and feelings, and how much they consider the intentions and feelings of others. Just a bit.

    Since a lot of guys aren't at ease around girls though, I can see why they would be reluctant to write one as a POV character. It's a shame. There's a lot to gain by having important female characters--half of everybody is female, and if you name important people in your own life, you're going to come up with a lot of women.
     
  3. bumblebot

    bumblebot New Member

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    Sure, I don't want to deny that there is a difference between men and women but I think similarities far outnumber differences. There is data (like this but it's just an abstract) to support the idea that women are more empathetic than men, like you mentioned. People do tend to respond to what is expected of them so it is difficult to tell how much is biological vs. environmental.

    I have thought that a female's ability to more readily sympathize and identify might be one of answers to the question asked by this thread. A woman is probably more likely to become invested in a main character of either gender, while a man might unconsciously prefer to read a book in which all the major players are male.
     
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  4. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

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    Brilliant post and succinctly summarises everything I'd want to say about this. It's inevitable that the more men think they can't write women effectively, the more we're going to see this massive disparity between successful male and female characters.


    I'm not trying to be harsh in any way, i just find your views on the battle of the sexes pretty immature. It might be because of your age or inexperience, I don't know. Not every woman gets pregnant or even wants to be pregnant. Just like not every man has been kicked hard in the 'nads' or feels like this is a defining male experience...

    There's no reason why you should point blank set yourself limits in not writing the 'female mind'. As bumblebot said, the psychological differences between the sexes is vastly exaggerated, particularly in the media. I think there are reasons for that I won't get into as it's off point. The fact that you think women are so different and define our experience with things like pregnancy, is perhaps an insurmountable stumbling block for you, personally. I don't think other male writers share your worries and would hate to think they'd be put off writing women by swallowing the fears of men who have a distorted view of the matter.

    In terms of fiction, we write about things we have little real experience of all the time. I don't often hear people say "I could never conceivably write about 19th century Scotland as I didn't live it". If it was what you wanted, you'd research it to the point where you could use your creative licence to make it come to life. On the contrary, I feel it's very lazy to say "I can't write women" since surely every man on this board spends a significant portion of their life in the company of women.

    Why do women fall outwith some male writers' capacity to act as observers like they do in every other aspect of their writing? The human condition is infinitely more important than the 'male condition' or the 'female condition.'

    Adjust accordingly...
     
  5. tiggertaebo

    tiggertaebo Member

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    Now correct me if I'm wrong here but it would appear that we have made it 6 pages without anyone mentioning Joss Whedon's work. He has consistently produced strong major characters who are female in various mediums for well over a decade. Think Buffy, Willow, River, Echo etc.
    If you look at Buffy in all 7 seasons of the TV show only one male member of the core four (Xander) averts an apocolypse by themselves and even then he does so by talking rather than one of the traditional sterotypical male ways.

    There are alot of cliches that have a "strong" male and "weak" female and there are alot of books/films/TV that use them but you don't have to go far to find strong female characters.
     
  6. w176

    w176 Contributor Contributor

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    But it really hard to find female character that isn't heavily sexualized as one of their main traits. Not attractive, as one of many traits, but attractive/sexualized as part of the very core concept, always presented as one of the most important things about the character. Often driving the plot.

    And in that aspect Joss Wheadon is as bad as anyone.

    Media has gotten better presenting strong female characters, but haven't come as far when it comes to female characters always having to play a role as sexual focus and sexual objects. (As objects of other peoples desires rather then focus on the characters own sexual desires.)
     
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  7. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah... there are definitely sexual connotations with regard to men who write 'strong' women who hold whips or beat up men while wearing a low cut top. Please..

    My idea of a strong woman is one who endures hardships while raising three kids alone. Something like that. Strong, but maybe not sexy enough to get some male writers hot under the collar.
     
  8. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    To be fair to Joss Whedon his females are no more sexualised than the males :) They are equally intended as eye candy.

    I can think of a few that aren't heavily sexualised. I like writing eye candy type men so I guess it could be reversed for male writers.
     
  9. w176

    w176 Contributor Contributor

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    ... No.

    Take a typical Buffy, Firefly or Dollhouse episode and take a look at what angle, picture focus, what sort of scenes, how the characters are dressed (causal, sexualized, practical, suggestively) etc and how many shots there are of men respectively women are as eye candy shots.

    Even if their eye candy shots of the male character there is a lot more shot like that of the women. I would easily guess at 3-4 times as many.
     
  10. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    I have only watched Buffy and Angel to be fair - but there would be more of women in Buffy the females are the major characters. Women in real life have more dress options than men. The others I don't know about but in Buffy the men often wore leathers and had a button or two lower than normal undone on their shirts. (well Angel and Spike did) - I obviously saw enough to know they have nice rears the trousers generally clung a bit tighter round their behinds and legs. Think about Jack Harkness from Torchwood - his clothes cover (have to for the Dr Who angle) however they fit in all the right places to be sexy and make him a hero/object. Just like the men in Angel and Buffy were protrayed - they were portrayed in a manner entirely intended for those that swung in the appropriate direction to go woah nice.

    Watching it as a teen/younger adult I was in no doubt those men were being objectified :) Funny I didn't mind lol
     
  11. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

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    ^ That's the most positive spin I've ever heard lavished upon sexist teen vampire sexploitation!

    The odd bare chest of a buff man doesn't make up the numbers sadly.
     
  12. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    So you didn't watch Buffy and Angel looking at Giles, Spike, Angel, Xander etc and think eye candy? Maybe it's my age lol Even the way Giles was portrayed had heavy sexual object overtones - there is something very kinky about the bookish, librarian with glasses type :). Both sexes were at the edge of what could be shown on the BBC at 6.25pm at night. It was supposed to be sexualised part of what made it good. It would be like taking the sex and violence out of Torchwood it's really what the show is about.

    But there are strong female characters on TV:
    First one I remember was the Inspector in Juliet Bravo
    Margo Leadbetter and Barbara Good.
    Jane Tennison
    Miss Marple
    Ace (Sylvestor McCoys companion) was the first one with attitude.
    The Bill had a collection.
    Even when you look at the soaps there has always been plenty.
    She-Ra (she was better clothed than He-Man just lol)

    Many of the books and films on my shelves have female leads - none are terribly sexualised no more than say Indiana Jones or Captain Picard.

    Having one of those playlist moments as I type this John Barrowman is singing Man I Feel Like a Woman. With two bloke cavorting in bright pink mini dresses that then get stripped off down to their undies.
     
  13. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

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    I think when I was a teenager I'd rather have repeatedly punched myself in the face than watch Buffy and Angel. Hey, it wasn't meant for me though as I didn't have much of an attention span for looking at Sarah wotsherface's boobs.

    I think that's where we differ. I observe 'strong' women in mainstream fiction and media as very narrowly defined stereotypes. They typically tend to be either matriarchal/unsexy/even 'asexual' =Miss Marple, or they are so astronomically sexualised that they are constantly fending off would be rapists = Buffy.
     
  14. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    But then to be fair Hercule Poirot was as asexual old maid type as Miss Marple. She wasn't being sexist in that it was the way she wrote her characters. Tuppence wasn't asexual as she was attached to Tommy.

    Just like in a show like Buffy or Torchwood - well its ment to be sexualised. Both sexes are used as eye-candy.

    I think Dinnerladies had a wealth of strong female characters, as did Last of the Summer Wine. Catherine Cookson, Barbara Taylor Bradford, Claire Raynor write pretty good women. No more sexualised than the men in the context of the books. It all depends what you are watching and reading I guess. Growing up there was Cagney and Lacey, maybe I just sort out strong women and chose reading with them in. I don't identify with weak women I struggle with one that turns into a puddle on the floor when her boyfriend leaves.

    I find both men and women attractive - if we apply the same standards to both then men get objectified but it may happen in a different way - their boobs may not be flashing but you can bet if they have a nice backside or legs its highlighted. their shoulders will be dressed to turn on, clothes will be chosen to objectify but it maybe in a different way- finding good strong male characters can be hardwork at times - they also get portrayed with swords, whips and chains.
     
  15. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

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    It would be nice if the world you were describing where hot men are seen as objects is what I see. I simply don't see it. I constantly see women sexualised and unattractive men appearing alongside hyper feminine female characters.
     
  16. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Maybe we watch different shows and read different material that is all - plus I am bisexual which changes perspectives on men and women. I do objectify men at times - and quite frankly find that easier when he is wearing a suit cut in the right way around the shoulders, trousers that fit well than I do when he is wearing a low cut top, suspenders and a mini skirt.

    I love Michael Ball as Edna Turnblad but much prefer him in a suit than a pair of heels. When he was younger his jeans and tshirts looked much better on him :) Don't find John Barrowman sexy in a short skirt or heels either - now put him in a well cut pair of jeans and I could objectify him. Whereas Jodi Prenger in a low top now she is hot. Ruthie Henshall is fabulous when her hips and boobs are highlighted. I was quite capable whilst watching Buffy to find both Angel and Buffy sexy in the same shot (less so Anya was more my type).

    I find both men and women attractive but different things need to be highlighted in different body shapes etc for that to give me a woah sexy reaction.
     
  17. tiggertaebo

    tiggertaebo Member

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    There's no reason that characaters of either gender can't be both strong and sexy (and yes the sexiness can be part of that strength without devaluing it). Like it or not most humans have a personality that is very heavily influenced by sex so unless there is a specific reason for it you'll find that most popular characters both male and female will end up being easier on the eye than not.

    Personally despite being a heterosexual male I never found Buffy to be particularly attractive, she just isn't my type. I did however find the character fascinating.
     
  18. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    But be fair: Angel, Spike and Xander were pretty heavily sexualised too, and Joyce wasn't any more sexualised than Giles. It's probably better that it's hard to find eighteen to thirty-something characters (acting age in the case of the vampires, of course) who are not heavily sexualised, irrespective of their gender.
     
  19. w176

    w176 Contributor Contributor

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    It not a problem with characters being sexy or being objectivised once or twice. Or anything else once or twice. It when it becomes a stereotype. It not racism when one black character is portrayed as stupid and violent once, it a racism when it becomes a pattern. It not a case of being derogatory towards homosexual if one homosexual man once is played as a sissy, but when homosexual men always is portrayed is sissy.

    Media is setting up a very slim gender norm is there is one movie where men are portraied as super matcho, super hetorsexual, have typical male interests, always horney, and never show a moment or doubt or any feeling apart from "matcho", "cool" and "angry." It when it becomes a pattern it a problem.

    The problem isn't that women is sexy in fiction, it is that they always is sexy and their most important trait is "attractive". It sends the signal:

    "It okay to be stong, it even okay to be weak as a girl, it okay to be a lot of thing but for f-sake you are a miserable failure of a women if you're not sexy"

    It is a problem that men always shown to be horny, always pursuing and always the initiative party and women is shown to be a passive party, focus on the role of her of wanted and ready, and as someone who shouldn't take to much sexual innovative, just stand around and be alluring to be chosen by someone.

    The problem isn't that things are sexy. But that description of peoples sexual identity, sexual roles and what is sexy are extremely narrow.
     
  20. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    Male characters are sexualized (almost) just as often. Do you honestly think Maximus in Gladiator is played and portrayed the way he is just to appeal to teenage boys? When he's smiling at the birds, when he shows compassion to even his enemies, when he's pledging his devotion to his wife and child, and going through every bit of pain only to be with them, and that he does all these things while being filmed only from his best angle? I don't think so. What about the slow-mo zoom onto Mel Gibson's bicep in Braveheart, as he come back to avenge his murdered wife? That's pure "T&A" for the female crowd.
     
  21. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    But even that data only shows differences on average. Your character doesn't have to be average. A particular man might be very empathetic, a particular woman might be particularly insensitive.

    At the recent SFX weekender, Terry Pratchett spoke about writing the female characters that have won him awards for "feminist" writing, and he said that he did it by thinking how a person would respond, not by thinking how a woman would respond.
     
  22. w176

    w176 Contributor Contributor

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    Not as often. There is a lot of reach done on this when they actually sit down and analyse every minutes of the day on TV, and brakes down it into statistics. Men are sexualized to, but not as much as girls, when it comes to numbers. In everything from commercials to game shows to movies women and men are treated differently. Women are a lot more often shown in sexual roles-

    But I also agree. Men sexuality is just as stereotypically treated and just as strong norms is in play when male sexuality is treated in media. Boys grow up with a lot of pressure and expectation of how their sexuality to work, and is even met with harder social repercussions if their sexuality differences from the norm.

    (A female submissive or domina in BDSM terms can be easily accepted into either role. We are used to females shown at different sexual expressions. (Just look at a Lady Gaga Video) But a male submissive or a dominator is a pervert either way and if anything about his sexual preferences got out his reputation and life might be ruined, and he might be beaten to death even.)
     
  23. Elgaisma

    Elgaisma Contributor Contributor

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    Dunno George Michael did Lets Go Outside I am sure when i was a young teen one of his videos got banned for being too sexual- Robbie Williams is always getting his kit off. Before them there was Frankie Goes to Hollywood - Queen did some interesting ones. Cliff Richard was denounced for his hip wiggling (my Gran thought him disgusting). John Lennon and countless other male popstars have been required to keep wives, girlfriends and their sexuality under wraps. I'm not terribly up on music videos lol

    However I do think it is unfair to sit and compare like that - a woman will generally objectify different things in a man. I know I do. So you would need to create a more level playing field and apply what actually objectifies a man or makes them sexy to others rather than going on amount of flesh showing.
     
  24. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    Um... we don't have to equate either sexy or 'kick-ass' with being strong, folks, whether male or female... Prefer the Gregory Peck type, myself.
     
  25. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

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    I'm officially your number one fan! x
     

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