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  1. GingerCoffee
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    Mandela - political discussion

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by GingerCoffee, Dec 6, 2013.

    It's part of his legacy, not sure why one cannot discuss the controversies along with the everything else. But I don't want to offend anyone so I started this thread for anything that may not fit in the RIP thread.

    There are two things I most admire Mandela for. The most important, of course, was not caving to the revenge cycle temptation when Apartheid ended. But the second most important thing is how he applied his principles even handedly across the board, and not just when it was convenient. That is where I see the political controversies about the man deriving from. The US government doesn't exactly have an hypocrisy free history and the unequal application of human rights principles is one place the hypocrisy is most evident. It's where Mandela's evokes the most contrast.
     
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  2. Lewdog
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    He fought a tough battle, one of the last well documented of its kind against public racism. That is undoubtedly true, but he is no saint. He accused the United States of creating a new holocaust in Iraq, and at times called Americans murderers, while at the same time he had his own hit squad that partook in revenge killings in South Africa. Here is just one article talking about this hit squad. Most of the killings just happened to be pushed off onto his ex-wife Winnie Mandela, whom Nelson eventually divorced, but you can't tell me he had no idea what was going on.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/murder-mandela.20523716
     
  3. GingerCoffee
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    He would not be the only person with this point of view.


    I don't know if Mandela was involved. While he was incarcerated his wife was plausibly acting independently and guilty of her own crimes.

    Winnie Mandela
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#National_reconciliation
    I see little evidence they were acting together at that point.
     
  4. JJ_Maxx
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    Not really sure what you're saying here. What controversy are you referring to? Both Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela fought for the same equality at the same time on two different continents. King applied for a visa to go to South Africa, but was denied by the white governmental powers there.

    A year after King gave his famous 'I have a Dream' speech in Washington D.C., Mandela was tried and sentenced to life in prison.

    South Africa lagged far behind the US in the march toward racial equality.
     
  5. GingerCoffee
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    I'm missing your point, JJ.:confused:
     
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  6. Fitzroy Zeph
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    Fitzroy Zeph Contributing Member Contributor

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    The US along with the UK, behaved reprehensibly during the Iraq conflict.
     
  7. Lewdog
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    Mandela didn't divorce her until 1996. Mandela got out of jail in 1990. That doctor was murdered in 1992. Your time line isn't adding up here.
     
  8. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    You made an inference to the contrast between the US and South Africa, right? You mentioned hypocrisy, I was trying to understand where you were going with that.
     
  9. Lewdog
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    Whether you agreed with the Iraq war or not, that wasn't just what Mandela said. He not only said the United States had created a new holocaust, he also said that Bush and English Prime Minister Tony Blair only went into Iraq because the Secretary-General of the United Nations Kofi Annan was black. He then went on to say that if the head of the U.N. was a rich white man they wouldn't have done it, asserting that Bush and Blair were racist and didn't respect Annan's authority as Secretary-General. That's just paranoia and ignorance.

    Look, as I said earlier I respect the fight Mandela undertook, and the fact it has changed South Africa much in the same way Abraham Lincoln changed the U.S., but during my lifetime there is only one, maybe two people, I would characterize as 'Saints.' The first is a definite yes, in Mother Theresa. No, ifs, ands, or buts about it. The second one is Ghandi.

    Edit: Ok Ghandi isn't exactly during my lifetime, but he's close enough. :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  10. Fitzroy Zeph
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    Fiction, is without a doubt, a good choice.
     
  11. GingerCoffee
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    Do you have a link for that? I can't help thinking you read between the lines of something that said nothing like this. If I could see it, it would help.
     
  12. Lewdog
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  13. GingerCoffee
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    I see.
    Well, Mandela had the oil part right. There were no WMDs.
     
  14. Lewdog
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    We may never know that to be perfectly true. Hussein had plenty of time to move WMDs out of Iraq.

    I wasn't reading between the lines was I? He used the word 'holocaust' in describing what the U.S. was doing in Iraq which was far from the truth. There are certain words that should never be thrown about lightly, and I believe 'holocaust" is one of those. He also was being a hypocrite by using the race card against Bush and Blair after years of fighting for equality.
     
  15. Fitzroy Zeph
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    The proof against the existence of any WMD is clear and concise. There were none. Period. End of story. Nada. Ain't no way. You wish to not believe that for many obvious reasons. I understand that, but the common expression would be... well, you fill it in.

    Mandela's statements were proper discourse for the matter at hand. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people died because of this action, which I don't care how you spin it, was never necessary, but proceeded as a matter of vengeance by the part of GWB and Co.
     
  16. Lewdog
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    So the U.S. should have just sat back and watched Hussein mercilessly commit genocide against the Kurds and other people in Iraq? Do you realize they are still finding more and more mass graves today? Not only did Hussein use chemical weapons against people in his own country, his sons would have people murdered for little to no reason at all. They once had an entire sports team executed for not winning a medal at competition. That is what a holocaust is, what Hussein did to the Kurds, not what the U.S. did.

    It's easy to be an armchair quarterback and say what should have been done after the fact, but in the end the U.S. and the U.K. couldn't have made the right decision either way when it came to Iraq. They could have stayed out and been chastised for letting people get slaughtered, or they go in and get blamed for having ulterior motives, either way they become the bad guy.

    ...and as far as oil, the U.S. is #3 in crude oil production in the world behind Russia and Saudi Arabia, and #1 in refined oil. Oil was not the reason the U.S. went into Iraq, that's just the easy defensive stance to take.

    As far as WMD's the U.S. was working on the information of an Iraqi scientist confidential information, that was supposed to have been working with them.

    Now back on topic, you can't defend the remarks Mandela made. A man that is supposed to be so composed and rational, just doesn't make statements like that.
     
  17. Fitzroy Zeph
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    This has all been debated ad infinitum for years now. And in my opinion, the US was either duped where a 10 year old never would have been or was knowingly complicit in all events that occurred.
    The US basically rode into town and hung 'em from the highest tree. But hey, bullet sales were good.
     
  18. GingerCoffee
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    Darn it, I did it again, I meant to hit reply and hit like. My apologies.

    It's time to let the WMD lie go, Lewdog. I feel bad for anyone who lost a loved one if that is painful. By all means they should believe whatever gets them through it. But the lies (Downing St memo, fake yellow cake charges, what's his face that was a paid informant clearly discredited, etc etc) coupled with what was found pretty much cinches it. The whole lot of them ginned up the case to get popular support for what they had planned all along according to Richard Clarke who was aware of the planning that took place while the chads were still hanging, long before BinLaden gave them the excuse to carry the plan out.

    As for holocaust, sure, millions of Iraqis were not systematically executed. But coming from a man with Mandela's history I'm not as concerned about his use of the word as you are. I agree with you, but not with the criticism of the man who used the word.

    People in this country are too quick to get up in arms, always denying the bad things the US government has done. I believe it is better to have the history right, regardless of the implications. There are plenty of atrocities that we've either carried out ourselves (as in Iraq), or trained and supported the people who did (time and time again in Central and South America, Africa and the Middle East).
     
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  19. GingerCoffee
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    Come on, open your eyes. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Lewdog
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    I'll ask you and GingerCoffee, what has the U.S. gotten from going into Iraq? They lost a bunch of good soldiers and racked up a huge war debt. They didn't convict Hussein and his people. They didn't execute Hussein. They didn't elect the government. Hell the government in charge doesn't even like the U.S. The only positive to come from the war is that the Middle East is a bit more stable, and innocent people aren't being ruled by a crazy dictator who had no problem killing thousands upon thousands of his own people.

    Obama continued the war in Iraq even after he said he was going to pull out, but Mandela never said anything about that. Then to save face Obama moved all the troops from Iraq to Kuwait and into the U.S. Embassy in Iraq. They have about ten times the amount of people the Embassy is supposed to hold staying there.
     
  21. GingerCoffee
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    Obama was stuck, you can't complain he didn't just reverse course immediately.

    Just because Bush, et al, totally screwed up in Iraq doesn't change the motive he had for starting the war. As for who benefitted and what were the goals, read "Imperial Life in The Emerald City: Inside Iraq's Green Zone" if you can find the time.
    Bush's crony contractors raked in billions and left shoddy construction resulting in failing infrastructure behind. Haliburton is still raking in the cash with government contracts. And don't kid yourself Cheney was divested and/or donated his profits to charity, his family profited immensely. Eric Prince, one of Bush's Evangelical cronies is still raking in billions even though he's had to change the name of his murder inc company, Blackwater, twice now.
     
  22. Lewdog
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    That's just it, if you want to go that route, some also say that Haliburton and Blackwater are not companies under the U.S. government, but instead companies being manipulated by the Illuminati and the Bilderberg, which are both international groups, not U.S. ones.
     
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  23. GingerCoffee
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    Don't lump me in with that CT stuff. I'm talking about verifiable evidence not Jesse Ventura's speculation.

    Of course if you aren't interested in the evidence, if you just want to hand wave it off with a conspiracy theory ad hominem, that's your choice.

    Jeremy Scahill has also done extensive investigating of Iraq and Blackwater.

    His book, Dirty Wars, was well received and he may be up for an Oscar for his latest documentary by the same name.

    Jeremy Scahill: the man exposing the US Dirty War

    You might also read Richard Clarke's book, "Against All Enemies" for some insight into the lead up to the Iraq War inside the White House.
     
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  24. Lewdog
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    Ok, this has gone off topic too far already. I proved my point that Mandela is not a saint. He fought for a good cause, but he was not the perfect person so many were portraying him to be.

    I can find evidence to support my theories about the Bilderbergs and the Illuminati, but your defense has been, and appears to always be that they are just conspiracy theories. End of discussion/
     
  25. Cogito
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    You want to know how to end a topic? Walk away.
     
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