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  1. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Marxism - worth it or not?

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Lemex, Mar 21, 2015.

    Ok, so: the workers revolution - Communism - the Materialist Interpretation of History. Marxism is still around today, and still inspires Feminists and Academics around the world. A lot of anger and ink has been spilled by intellectuals and pseudo-intellectuals about all these things. It has even been tried in a few places, with unfortunate outcomes.

    So, I ask you, is Marxism really worth it in the end?

    Is there anything to the Materialist Interpretation of History, or is it overly simplistic? Is there going to be an eventual Communist utopia, or is it just a fool's dream? Is there something to the idea of Class Struggle, or is society now too complex to be split into working, middle, and upper class?

    As for myself - I can be pretty communistic, but I despise Marxism.
     
  2. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Communism is not Marxism. No truly Marxist state has ever been attempted.
     
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  3. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Communism is the end goal - was in Marx's writings anyway. It is important to say, as you do. Marxism and Communism are not the same thing, one is a part of the other but not vice versa.
     
  4. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    I'm confused about the "inspires feminists." How so?
     
  5. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Check out Feminist theory, like Judith Butler, the patriarchy is an aspect of the bourgeoisie power structure apparently. 'Marxism' is this amorphous mass in academia right now, pretty much a short hand for any form of cultural materialism.
     
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  6. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yeah, it sounds very poorly labelled.
     
  7. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Communists states have labeled themselves as such, but were never made inside the Marxist revolution. They are not therefore communists. They are Leninist or Maoists, Stalinist or Castroist, but only Communist in the same way that the US is a democracy.
     
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  8. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    That was my thought too. What does Marxism have that "inspires Feminists"?
     
  9. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Yeah, that seems about right.
     
  10. outsider
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    outsider Contributing Member Contributor

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    In a world where it's fast approaching the situation whereby a privileged 1% of the population will control most of the wealth, a revolution like Marx envisaged doesn't seem so far fetched. I for one, will be there.
    Hasta La Victoria Siempre

    E.T.A.
    In spirit, if not in person.
     
  11. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Well I haven't read anything about it, but I would surmise that the Marx/Engels paradigm of revolution would appeal to most feminists. To whit, the concept that the power structure cannot be changed from within, and only revolution is able to change the hegemony.

    In some ways this differs from the women's suffrage movement, so I'm not really sure on all this.
     
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  12. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Um, it was that system of thought where everyone had to share equally, no one was richer or poorer than the other, correct?
     
  13. GingerCoffee
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    Marxism is the theory and Communism is the practical implementation of Marxism, according to that link.
    I don't see much reason to care about the difference. The problem with Marxism is human nature. They don't mix well.
     
  14. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    That, and the socialist idea that the workers control the means of production, the ideology of the Materialist Interpretation of History, and the 'science' of class warfare and workers resentment leading to revolution and eventually to workers utopia. Not quite class warfare, any form of class confrontation is class warfare - revolution is just the result of class warfare and resentment bubbling away.

    I don't buy it, I feel I must point out.

    Edit: Why bother learning about a subject or a theory when some random interview you'd found online, after a few minutes googling, will tell you literally everything about a person's life work. ¬.¬
    \/
     
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  15. GingerCoffee
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    It's hard to find very much connecting Butler to Marx.
    That doesn't say anything about Marxism, it says something about Marx's discussion of tactics.
     
  16. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    No, not at all.

    The issue is still a matter of wealth, but what Marx/Engels were talking about was about the industrial revolution. In simple terms, if you go to work for a company, you get paid a wage. But because the owner of the company had to sell his products at a profit, you are never paid the true value of your labor. Your labor is your time, and it's the only commodity that the proletariat has to offer. All of the control resides with the bourgeoisie who control the means of production and therefore the wealth.

    Marx/Engels stated that the only way to change this was to achieve a system where the workers owned both their own labor and their time was if the means of production was distributed among the workers. There is no reason that individual property cannot be owned, only that a company that devalues its workers is a structure that is unjust.


    Yes, that's exactly what I was saying.
     
  17. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    I'm not following what you're saying here at all.
     
  18. matwoolf
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    @Jack Asher - that's one part of Marxism. It is an enormous topic, however and I must point out how the revolution is inevitable, Marx says so, scientifically. As a Quietist I sit back and waits.

    Political philosophy is so tough. If you manage to even get through one of them, you are gripped, in its spell - 'Mein Kampf' aside, maybe, maybe not. That's normally what comes up in a thread - like when somebody has struggled through the Prince. Makes me feel I am an insect - with all the other insects.

    They are beautiful in their genius: Hobbes, Wittg, Popper, Kant, Paine. But I sense the destruction of capital comes from elsewhere? I posted a year ago the article about photocopying gold - in the future. Although nothing beats being twenty with a thirst for justice, I miss that.
     
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  19. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Marx proposed two things:

    First that every conflict in human history was a class conflict, which we can see in the present day system where women occupy an (arguably) lower class then men. They are paid less for the same work, they are seen as worth only their physical attributes. A woman senator is judged by her peers as a sex object, etc.

    Second that resolving class conflict could only happen through revolution. That the entrenched hegemony could not be trusted to change the status quo on its own without bias.

    We can see both of these concepts at work in modern feminism.
     
  20. Chinspinner
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    Oh Christ, we are getting into Russell Brand territory here, turning cringe up to maximum.
     
  21. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Jack Asher is quite right. Basically all Materialist/Gender studies is based on the Hegalian idea of dialectical warfare. Basically that's the idea that when an idea (thesis) is born there is naturally the creation of it's direct opposite (anti-thesis), and these two ideas go into a state of conflict that eventually results in a union of the two (synthesis). In Marxist theory feudalism existed, so mercantile capitalism emerged to fight it, which lead to the synthesis of Capitalism based on the three class system. Then Marxism was born to boldly fight and confront Capitalism. That's the base idea - the revolution is the start of the synthesis.

    Oh god, that guy. O.O
     
  22. Chinspinner
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    Surely the synthesis already exists in the public sector, welfare state and legal framework constraining rampant capitalism. More so in the EU than US.
     
  23. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    See, that's where I'm not seeing this. What feminists are advocating revolution, as opposed to changes, perhaps substantial changes, in law and policy and society? Is this a metaphor where changing discriminatory laws are equated to revolution? Or...?
     
  24. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Ah, I see you're here to contribute your usual amount of nothing to the debate.
     
  25. matwoolf
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    Glad to see we're all demonstrating our levels of comprehension.
     
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