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  1. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Maybe this belongs in the lounge instead of in the debate room but

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by GingerCoffee, Mar 27, 2016.

    This is what my son put on his FaceBook page and it made me proud (language - Sorry it was never something I made a big deal of in our house):

    "If you interact with me on any regular basis, you are aware that I am interested in the politics and policies that drive this and other countries. If you allow me to, I will gladly talk anyone who will listen’s ear off about the ACA, climate change, the proper role of the Federal Reserve, the need to drop the arcane and outdated rules that allow the voice of the few to override the voice of many in Congress, the strong need for better oversight and control in our electoral process, etc. etc. etc. the list goes on. Despite this, I will not be attending the Democratic caucus today as I earnestly cannot decide which of the two candidates would be a better choice for this country (feel free to debate me on this point as well as I have much to say on it). But I would like to use today, caucus day in Washington State, to use my social media soap box to talk about a different kind of politics that now seems to dominate our public conversation.

    When it comes to complex issues like the economy, health care, and climate change, I do not fault anyone for taking a stance opposite of mine, because those issues are very large and very hard to understand and comprehend. It is in that space that I love to debate, because there is much to debate about; I love to share my views as well as I can and I love to let others educate me on their position and beliefs. All of us, even the true experts, constantly have much to learn in those areas. But there is another class of issues that are so asinine, so simple and so toxic that I have found myself actively ignoring them, not because they aren’t important (they are easily the most important issues facing the USA today), but because the debate itself just bores the hell out of me.

    I often feel quite bad for myself by not engaging with others on those issues, because many of my friends and family are affected by them directly, and if we are silent we might as well be on the other side. So to that end, I want to make absolutely clear where I stand on these boring but terrible issues, but I feel as if I can only debate them in the terms and phrasing that I believe is appropriate for them. I will attempt to distill a nuanced policy position into three simple words: “go fuck yourself”.

    If you feel as if 1.6 billion Muslims are somehow to blame or need to collectively apologize for the actions of a radical group of about 10,000 people primarily located halfway around the world, go fuck yourself.

    If you think that the influx of Mexican immigrants to this country is resulting in any kind of major increase in violent crime, go fuck yourself.

    If you think women don’t deserve equal pay and social equality, as well as the right to govern what occurs inside of their own bodies, go fuck yourself.

    If you think it is OK to roll back decades of progress for LGBT rights and tell people what bathroom they can use based on what you think they have going on inside their pants, go fuck yourself.

    If you look at hundreds of thousands of people forced to flee their home due to war and terror and monstrous things as “too risky” to allow into your country, go fuck yourself.

    If you think more than 1 mass shooting in the USA per day is an acceptable amount of casualties and that the problem will not be mitigated greatly by a responsible and simple approach to gun rights, go fuck yourself.

    There are many approaches to debating these issues. All have been debunked thoroughly by facts and statistics. But facts and statistics are not the appropriate response when the claim itself is too ridiculous to warrant a debate. The debate has ended, “go fuck yourself” begins now."


    I am so proud of the son I raised. :supersmile:
     
  2. NigeTheHat
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    NigeTheHat Contributing Member Contributor

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    While I appreciate the sentiment, I'm not sure why climate change isn't on the 'go fuck yourself' list. There's plenty of discussion to be had over what to do about it, but there's no reasonable debate to be had on whether or not it's happening or if we're involved.

    (There. Now this thread belongs in the debate room. You're welcome :D )
     
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  3. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    He meant there were things about climate change, like how to go about addressing it, that could be discussed. He has no doubt whatsoever that it needs to be addressed.
     
  4. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    It's another poorly written Facebook wall opinion peice- as if we all didn't already have enough of those on our own feeds- and exactly the type of liberal sentiment, which myself and an increasing number of others can't stand. This pseudo liberal mentality says that important issues like wealth inequality and our climate are up for debate, which basically means, maybe we shouldn't do anything to stop what are essentially criminal actions. Meanwhile, issues that affect a much smaller number of people, and either have no bearing on law, like "social equality"- whatever that means- or are truly debatable, like gun control, are not open for debate and everyone should think the same. The "go fuck yourself" is unnecessarily rude and hostile, and he contradicts himself with his "even one mass shooting is too much" argument, in regards to gun control, after he states himself in favor of accepting refugees, which, as we see in Europe, has probably led to violence.

    I will say this. It's interesting that a young millennial liberal, who lives in an extremely liberal state that voted overwhelmingly for Sanders, opted out of the caucus. It's clear that he very much loves his mother.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
  5. Earp
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    Earp Active Member

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    I'm happy that you're proud of your son. You don't say how old he is, but his attitude reminds me of a relative of mine who is in his 30's and works in academia (university professor). He's a good guy, but he, too, takes the narcissistic view that everything he believes is God's Own Truth and people who don't agree can 'go fuck themselves'. It's probably too late for my relative (he's been in school since he was 5, and will likely never leave), but if your son lives and works in the real world, I suspect he'll eventually grow up and realize that others can have valid opinions too.
     
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  6. Acanthophis
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    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    It's rude but necessary. People who believe this shit is still actually up for debate (especially climate change) are LITERALLY going to get us all killed. Deniers should be imprisoned. I'm extreme in my views, but so far we've seen pretty much every government around the world take the "meh, fuck it" approach to climate change. Extreme examples make people see reality.

    Hardly any violence, and in Canada we've had no incidents of refugee violence. Granted, we've only taken in a little over 25,000 while Germany has taken in a million. It's not like native-born Canadians, Germans, Swedish, etc. don't do anything violent.[/QUOTE]
     
  7. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    The message in question wasn't applying "go fuck yourself" to climate change deniers. It should have.
     
  8. Earp
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    Earp Active Member

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    This is the Debate Room, so I'll risk pissing off members I usually agree with and offer my opinion that people who use the term 'deniers' to describe those who have legitimate questions about current climate change theory are attempting to evoke the image of Holocaust deniers, and thus dishonor the lives and memory of victims and survivors of that historical fact. Contemptible.
     
  9. Tenderiser
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    Tenderiser Not a man Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    And all I've been doing on Facebook this week is sharing lolcats and encouraging everybody to vote RRS Boaty McBoatface.
     
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  10. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Think of the "fuck you" as literary license, @123456789. His point is there is no argument that legitimately supports hate and discrimination.

    Naturally the people who see Muslims and immigrants as the cause of their or the country's problems and/or people who think gays are perverts and outlawing discrimination is an affront to religious freedom are not going to like the fact their arguments have no persuasive power, they have no argument worth entertaining.

    I think his position makes perfect sense and yes, I'm proud these are the values he has developed.
     
  11. TheRealStegblob
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    TheRealStegblob Active Member

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    He claims 'facts and research', but facts and research proved the wide scale gender pay gap was a myth? Unless there's some pocket demographic that is actually sexist against women or something, I don't know who he's trying to rebuff here.
     
  12. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    You must be reading a different piece than I posted because you certainly don't understand what the post says.

    Of course he loves me but the rest of your paragraph repeats a pattern.

    Given that so far the majority of Democratic Primary voters are favoring Clinton and most of the Democratic Party members think either Clinton or Sanders would make a good POTUS for different reasons, why do you again try to belittle and demean the reasons someone sees Clinton as a viable candidate for POTUS?
     
  13. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Not sure why you put God in their, we are both atheists. I assure you he lives and works in the real world. Re narcissism, that comment doesn't make sense to me. Trump is a narcissist. Someone who cares about fellow humans is pretty much the opposite.

    Why should he not tell people who would argue issues of morality that they have no argument worth considering? Obviously people have different moral positions. I see no reason to entertain someone telling me God finds gays immoral. A person with those beliefs certainly has no interest in my POV that gods are mythical beings that provide no basis upon which to declare a moral position.
     
  14. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    The problem was described as deniers because until very recently corporations like Exxon were actually producing science denial propaganda (merchants of doubt—when you don't like what the implications of the science are, and you can't actually counter the evidence, manufacture doubt).

    Now that the evidence is even more overwhelming that the climate is warming, most of the doubt is subsiding.
     
  15. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    You're the one who doesn't understand what the post says. (Notice I am now applying your style of argument)
     
  16. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Which is not what he said, is it? He said if you don't think women deserve equality...

    On the other hand, and not to start a wage inequality debate here, no matter what a person believes about the overall totals, there is no doubt Lilly Ledbetter was cheated out of equitable pay. There is no doubt nurses, being a mostly female profession, were seriously underpaid for their skills until the mid-80s when the hospital monopoly on wages was finally broken and pay for nurses skyrocketed. The market rate for nurses wages had been suppressed by that employer monopoly since nursing began.

    There are more examples.
     
  17. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Not in your state!!! :)
     
  18. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Did you not read further where I expounded on my comment?
     
  19. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    And this is relevant, why?

    You demean people's points of view that don't agree with yours.
     
  20. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    They're FINE values, so in as much as "don't kill" is a fine value. In terms of politics, they're worthless. Corporations would love for us to focus on nothing but bigotry, which costs them nothing, meanwhile our middle class shrinks and our planet continues to die. People need to pick the right battles and they need to do it now.
     
  21. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    I don't see it. I see this one sentence, then you address topic of who voted what.
     
  22. TheRealStegblob
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    There's been thousands of issues for either gender not getting paid. The nurses thing isn't even a plausible example in your favor because it had nothing to do with them being paid specifically for their gender and therefore doesn't fit into the whole "women are/were paid specifically less", even if it was, that was over two decades ago, it wouldn't apply today.

    I don't think there's hardly anyone who actively believes women should get paid less on the basis of being women. The whole movement was started with cherrypicked/skewed facts and quickly debunked.
     
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  23. KaTrian
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    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I'm not sure what exactly you guys are going to be debating here, but whatever it is, please try to remain respectful towards each other, even if you disagree on... whatever it's going to be (Climate change? Earning gap? Whether unicorns are real or not?).

    Thank you. :agreed:
     
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  24. Acanthophis
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    Deniers and skeptics are different. A denier is somebody like Trump, who says climate change was INVENTED by the Chinese, or that it flat out doesn't exist; a skeptic is somebody who asks questions - most climate change skeptics eventually come to the conclusion that it's real. Skeptics are good for the conversation and ultimately good for progress, where deniers are dangerous because they choose not to look at information, and just keep spewing the same nonsense.
     
  25. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    We don't need to debate this here but you are talking to someone who knows exactly what happened and why. My third book after I finish my duology is going to be on the Real History of Nursing where I'll address not only how gender was the main reason for the underpaying of an entire profession but also how it is responsible for the lack of recognition for nursing scientists in history and the high skill level nursing practice became before nurses were credited for their skills.

    It's a long way off until the book is written but my expertise on the subject is extensive.
     
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