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  1. TOmRL
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    TOmRL Member

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    More than persuasion.

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by TOmRL, Jul 27, 2014.

    I see a lot of things like this in Youtube or around the internet. I think I can reason against this kind of thing capably, but I don't think I can make people feel bad for saying it. It annoys me, I just don't think I can appeal to the loonies who say stuff like this. I want them to feel awful about what they are saying. I think I'll need to appeal to writer for this, anyone got any tips?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2014
  2. Garball
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    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

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    Go fishing.
     
  3. shadowwalker
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    shadowwalker Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yeah. People like that are obviously wrong to some, obviously right to others, and no one will change their minds.
     
  4. TOmRL
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    TOmRL Member

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    Ooooooh, I thought Garball was just spamming. I get it. I think people with these beliefs do change their minds, I know people who have, but it takes a lot of time. I'll do the best I can to speed up the process.
     
  5. Garball
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    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

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    You have chosen a stance opposite of those you mentioned. You believe you are right; they believe they are. Are you the ultimate judge of who's opinion is right or wrong? From an unbiased observer's point of view, it would be fair to say that both sides are proselytizing. Is the opinion of a mouth breathing, knuckle-dragging troglodyte worth the stomach acid? If it is, then argue online with anonymous people. Or, buy a six-pack, cane pole, and a can of worms and enjoy it.
     
  6. TOmRL
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    TOmRL Member

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    ...And what's wrong with that? No I'm not the ultimate judge of who's opinion is right or wrong, that's a non-sequitur. But one of the most important things that humans do is argue their point. To act like everyone's opinion is equally valid is stupid and halts progress.

    These places are quite popular platforms, if you are good enough, you can effect a lot of people in a small way. Those on the side of good will gain ammunition in the form of rationale from those who are able to argue with good points. Those on the side of "survival of the fittest" might possibly have to re-evaluate their opinions.
     
  7. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    Arguing with people on places like Youtube is a complete waste of time. Some of those posters are probably just kidding around because they're bored and want to stir up controversy, and the ones who are being serious are just as stupid. I agree with the others that they aren't worth your time. The internet is quite possibly the worst place to try to change someone's opinion. I don't think people like the idea of having their opinion changed by some random person on the internet.
     
  8. jazzabel
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    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

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    You can't argue with internet trolls because their entire reason for existing is to piss people off. They'll say the vilest, stupidest, most ridiculously idiotic things. and pass them as 'their opinions', just to get attention of all the people who want to 'talk to them' and 'show them the error of their ways'. Only, they don't actually change their minds, they just latch on to whoever reacts to them and taunt them for sadistic pleasure. It's quite pathological.

    You want to know what kind of people should not be allowed to live? Internet trolls. But guess what? I'm not god and I don't decide who lives or dies. But when I see a troll starving for attention, I decide if I'll feed them or leave them to wallow in their own misery. Don't feed the trolls.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2014
  9. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    You say that the second one might be a troll. It seems obvious to me that the first one is of course a troll.

    But in any case, there's no point in arguing directly with people like this.
     
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  10. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    There should be an age reqiuirement for the internet....
     
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  11. Garball
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    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

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    ...and limit.
     
  12. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    Am I the only one old enough to know what "endless September" means?

    Edited to add: Rather than making that a riddle, I explain:

    Back in the cavemen days, when the main way to get Internet access was at universities or at work, every September there would be a big new group of college freshmen who knew nothing about online etiquette. They'd be beaten into decent behavior by around Christmas, and some level of civilization would rule until the following September.

    Then everybody got on the Internet, and it's been September forever after.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2014
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  13. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    This is how I see it:

    Do you want to waste an entire afternoon arguing with an anonymous person online who is clearly going out of their way to piss you off, or do you want to spend an afternoon doing what you love?

    It's hard to ignore the trolls, I know. You see something that's just so idiotic, so wrong, so vulgar and offensive that you feel like it's your duty to go in the ring and show them how very wrong they are. This is exactly what they want. It's like those posts on Facebook that have a picture of a child or an animal in need with the caption that says 'Like to help this person/animal!'. It's baiting for attention. And even if that person wasn't a troll and he/she actually believes autistic kids are vermin, guess what? That person is still not worth your time because they're convinced they're right, and they just want to fight everyone else who disagrees with them. They're not happy unless everyone else is stirred up in a frothing stew of anger.

    The Internet has brought out the best, and the worst humans have to offer. It's to be expected if you give humanity a way to contact each other on a global scale via a screen and the keyboard.
     
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  14. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    To the OP,

    We all think fuqed up thoughts and we have all thought fuqed up thoughts since we first held a gleaming femur bone in our paw, looked over at Krug, who all the females seemed to think was the best thing since sliced mammoth and thought to ourselves what a satisfying thunk! noise that femur bone would make against the back of Krug's head.

    We're still holding that femur bone in our collective hand right now. This minute. As we speak.

    The thing is that until the internet, acting on our thoughts or behaving in provocative ways (what used to be called iconoclasm) required one's physical presence and the very real possibility that one might have to put one's money where one's mouth was. That was the check that kept things in balance. Only a certain foolhardy few were willing to actually be accountable to their words and actions that fell outside the constraints necessary to keep a functioning society glued together. This was tolerable and even laudable to a certain extent. It made culture heroes like James Dean and John Wayne. But culture heroes pay prices for their shining moment in the sun, for the adulation the rest of The People cast upon them, enjoying vicariously what they cannot enjoy IRL.

    Now, on the internet, everyone can be iconoclastic, which pretty much voids the meaning of iconoclasm completely. When everyone can pose as James Dean with John Wayne's mouth filtered through Samuel L Jackson's vocabulary, because the femur bone has become digital and no longer makes a satisfying thunk upon the back of the head, then it's all just masturbation isn't it. When someone is masturbating, the proper etiquette is to walk away and let them have their privacy. ;)
     
  15. TOmRL
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    TOmRL Member

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    I'm surprised at all the negative comments I'm getting because I still care about humanity.

    'I don't care about humans therefore no one else should!' is a stupid way of thinking. I'm so fed up of tools in the internet. I know those should have been quotation marks, but the button isn't working.
     
  16. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    Then you've taken the wrong message from what most of us are saying. No one is saying not to care about humanity. We're saying the segment of the populace whom you so aptly label as tools not only has no interest in being improved by you or set to a better path by you, they've a vested interest in the opposite. Their behavior has no kinship with the kind of interaction you find in, say, a forum such as this. What they are doing is something completely other because the venue of communication is void of consequences and they are enjoying the indulgence of getting a rise out of people. The subject matter itself, the vehicle for getting the rise, so to speak, is not really of any importance to them. Put any of those tools in front of five mothers with autistic children, give those five mothers 15 minutes of amnesty, and let it play out. A very different game it would be because consequences would be reintroduced to the scenario.
     
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  17. Garball
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    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

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    Peruse the debate thread on this site. You will see everybody responding to this thread is quite involved with debating. However, a good debate occurs between two intelligent parties who are willing to possibly be persuaded, educated enough on the matter as to understand the opposing belief (often arguing from a stance that is not your own), and attempting to further their own knowledge on the subject. A debate is not two trolls slinging shit at one another.
     
  18. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    You make it sound so fun.
     
  19. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    TOmRL, just how much is arguing with idiots going to help humanity?

    It's not that we don't care. It's that we put our efforts into actions that might actually make a difference.
     
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  20. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Exactly, it's not that we hate humanity, we just don't waste our time with people who are clearly not interested in listening to us.
     
  21. Bjørnar Munkerud
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    Saying "fuck kids with autism" is obviously silly (and horrifying), because people with autism are possibly even more different from eachother than "normal people" are from eachother. I don't, however, think we should let the political correctness go too crazy and just label it all taboo however, because this is an important debate, and it's not productive to attack people or people's opinions (however stupid, offensive, damaging or terrifying). We should stop talking past eachother and start have real, informed, productive discussions. More people should learn that disagreeing isn't a problem. We also need to understand that disagreement is just as validly a part of evolution as physical capabilities and actractiveness: those with the most suitable opinions are more likely to more likely to get to parenting age, produce offsping, raise a child and teach a child what they've come to think.

    And now to the original/real (and by far most controversial) topic (as I see it): where do we draw the line as to who are "us" and who are "them"? By this I mean which being are on each of our "teams" when it comes to who we consider to have worth and who we want to live and have influence in the world or on or over ourselves? Are we alone? Is it our families (in which case how far out does it go? The people who know? The people we like? The people we think will improve the future generations' genepool? Our "race"/ethnicity? "Normal people" (excluding "genetically different" people, at least those deemed "inferior" to the average human)? Humanity? Apes? All animals? All life? Earth? The Milky Way? The entire universe? Everythings that exists in any form anywhere ever?

    Personally I'm at around the "humanity" level (and my view on vagitarianism and animal welfare is set accordingly, though I'm not an idiot who'd kill all animals, because then we'd all die): I'm a bit scetchy when it comes to whether or not chimpanzees and gorillas should be let to do their thing without humans driving them to extinction if for whatever reason we need to (I suppose we should if we had a very good reason, but only then). More controversially, though, I'm of the opinion that abortion of people with certain (those that cause people to have lower IQ or to have reduced physical abilities or lifespans etc.) genetic mutations (I don't feel like namedropping any specific diagnoses) should be mandatory, as they hold society back and because we "might as well" (I'm a firm believer in that you're only a person and only of worth once you're born and that abortion is always acceptable, but that birth not always is (it's a much bigger deal to give life to someone than to discard a piece of meat that's been inside you for nine months, after all) . I'm of the opinion, though, that once people have been born they should be treated like everyone else. This again comes back to evolution (which sounds cruel, but you have to realise that it's the single most important reason for our entire existence and success as a species and as life on Earth in general): natural selection deals with all the rest. We don't benefit from judging people, we can let history do that for us. And, besides, a foetus can't be afraid to die, but people would be constantly terrified of being deemed "unfit to live". I hope I have you all with me when I say I don't wantg to live in some sort of mix between the Holocaust and "A Brave New World".
     
  22. jazzabel
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    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

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    By all means please do drop example diagnoses you would force pregnant women to abort. As a medical professional, who is only too aware of intellectual inferiority of eugenics ideas, how deeply flawed the logic behind them was, how ignorant one must be of the science and medicine to even suggest such things, I would LOVE to discuss particulars with someone who in this day and age subscribes to such deeply violent, illegal and unethical practices that haven't been embraced by anyone since the nazis. Bring it on!

    ps. Natural selection as it was observed by Darwin stopped being relevant to human species the moment we learned to put a roof over our heads and cooperate to create civilisation. Many of our civilisation's achievements we owe to people who suffered with mental or physical illnesses or disabilities, this is indisputable. So if you believe in eugenics, you are doing so because controlling the lives of the less fortunate is appealing to your ego, and it makes you feel special because you aren't in the target group. However, if you want to feel big and strong, you should pick on someone a bit stronger than pregnant women and their unborn babies with disabilities.

    pps. As a 21 year old, you aren't even old enough to gain thorough understanding or competence in any field that relates to these issues. As a man, you have no right to impose your controlling views on matters of female reproduction whatsoever. When you get a degree in medicine or perhaps genetics, and start to menstruate, ovulate and carry foetuses in your uterus, then your opinions on this topic will be something other than ignorant.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
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  23. Vandor76
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    Vandor76 Contributing Member

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    I do not think it should or can be forced. My wife is pregnant and as she is nearly 35 the probability of the baby having Dawn-syndrome is about 1:400 (~0.25%). Because we think it is too high probability she will do the NIFTY test tomorrow. The main question that we've been discussing endlessly in the past week is "What, if the result is positive?" She is at the 14th week and the baby has everything already, moving his/her tiny hands and legs, etc on the screen of the ultrasound. I REALLY don't know what would I say if the test is positive but it wouldn't be an easy day, that's sure.
     
  24. jazzabel
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    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

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    My sister is pregnant for the first time and she is over 35, she's also a doctor, and she panicked so bad, she had all the most sophisticated genetic tests done, some of them in a lab in America. So you are by no means unusual in your need to know. Nobody wants their child to have health challenges, it's only natural to want them to be perfect and have best chance in life to become strong and independent people. So don't think about what you would do if... now, it's one of those things you have to face if they ever happen, which in your case is very unlikely.

    Be as it may, I believe there's nothing wrong with deciding to terminate a pregnancy, regardless of the reason. Women can theoretically have many more pregnancies than their bodies can withstand, 15% of all conceptions spontaneously miscarry anyway, so embryos are not children.

    I wish you both good luck on the test! I am sure everything is ok :)
     
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  25. Vandor76
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    Vandor76 Contributing Member

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    Thank you for the godspeed, I'm also sure the baby will be OK. All the other tests were fine, so why worry about 0.25%?
    Good luck for your sister! :)

    To address the OP's question : the correct handling of internet trolls is simple : ignore them. Banning them is not a solution as they will come back under a different name. Arguing with them means they won. If everyone ignores them they will get bored and go away. Several forums have a "+/-" comment rating system so you can rate comments and choose to see only those ones that are above a certain level (like above -3 or so). This helps a lot to receive less offense and ignore trolls the easy way :)
     
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