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  1. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Mother Murderers

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Lewdog, Jul 7, 2015.

    What has it been lately that there have been so many children killed by their mothers? And these are just your normal murders. There was one where a mother was pushing her dead child on a swing for THREE days. Is there some new kind of psychological problem that is going on? This seems like so much more than post partum disorder, the kids are in their 2's and older. What are your feelings?
     
  2. tanstaafl74
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    tanstaafl74 Member

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    A quick google showed me that it isn't happening more often, it's just being talked about in the media more. That seems to be the case with a lot of issues these days. Statistically there are less kidnappings and child murders than when I was a young child (late 70s through mid-80s) yet parents don't feel safe letting their children go alone outside in contrast to my childhood when everyone was walking around town by themselves.

    This phenomenon is because of global media. When I was a kid we had three channels, maybe a four and we saw local news. The fact that a kid was taken in Birmingham, AL was not newsworthy enough to make the 5PM or 10PM news, so we just didn't see it. Now though the news is almost inescapable. 24/7 news channels, web news outlets, and even social media throwing things in our face. It makes the world look like a much scarier place than it really is.
     
  3. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    What really got to me was that one woman who showed no remorse and said something like, "If I had the chance, I would do it again." Seriously? What's worse is that she tortured them before murdering them. If it were up to me, I'd send her to Guantanamo.
     
  4. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    And another:

    http://news.yahoo.com/mom-2-old-found-ravine-charged-killing-her-195856209.html
     
  5. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    Okay, so while it's tempting to vilify these mothers, (and I certainly don't want to defend them), Maybe we need to try to figure out what went wrong, so we can try to keep it from going wrong again.

    I absolutely don't agree with sterilization programs or enforced birth control or any other attempts by the state to control women's bodies. But what could we do, short of these punitive and invasive measures, that would prevent people from becoming mothers when they aren't ready for the job?

    Because motherhood is fucking stressful. I have well-adjusted, healthy, educated friends with family support and money to pay for extra help who have become sobbing, incoherent messes after a few days with a colicky baby. There are mentally ill, unhealthy, poorly educated, socially isolated, impoverished women dealing with the same shit, and the vast majority of them make it through okay. But should they have to? Could we not find ways to help mothers out a bit (or a lot) more? Or, of course, fathers, if they're the primary caregivers.

    We have a lot of assumptions about having kids in our society. It's natural, it's just what you do, it'll all take care of itself. Most of the time, parents muddle through. But sometimes, they don't, and it's absolutely disastrous for the most innocent victims there could ever be.

    So, for me, we should:

    A) be actively discouraging people from having babies until they're completely set up for the job of parenthood. This absolutely applies to men as well as women - for every mother out there, there's also a father, and they need to pull their weight or make sure they're not getting people pregnant.

    B) And then once babies are born, we should be supporting caregivers more so they aren't so stressed.

    Unfortunately, most of the ways we find to do B seem to counteract A. Once the baby is born, we want to support it, and we support babies by supporting mothers. So having kids can start looking like a pretty sweet deal.

    Anyone have any ideas how to do B) without messing up A)?
     
  6. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    Nope, I think your initial conclusions forego the possibility. Have met those who blow -- pun intended -- baby bonuses.
     
  7. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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  8. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    I like the "in order to get the grant, or maternity box, they had to visit a doctor or municipal pre-natal clinic before their fourth month of pregnancy," part. I've seen reports of this program before, and it seems lovely and sweet and whatever, and I'm not against it, but it does kind of feed into the you should have a baby mentality that I think is damaging to our societies. I think it would be good if the dominant message was Don't have a baby!!! Oh, shit, you did. Okay... uh...

    Not that I think people shouldn't have babies. I just think they should do it for reasons other than societal expectations.
     
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  9. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    Well, now, isn't that a whole other kettle of fish....
     
  10. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    To me it seems almost impossible to make a woman go to some psychological testing and treatment without letting the government take rule over lives. There are so many times people won't seek out the help on their own because they don't want to be labeled "those people."

    Along this same lines there is forced abortions. Who knows? Maybe I'm just seeing more incidents than others, but it does seem to be a lot lately.
     
  11. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    By my previous comment, just wanted to clarify that I meant, "yeah, that's quite a debate on its own." Nothing critical on my end.
     
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  12. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think that in the United States a lot could be done by making care for postpartum depression and anxiety easily available. I say "in the United States" but I don't actually know if support for mental health is any more available in other countries. But I have read that some women that ended up in horrible stories did seek help earlier in that horrible story, and couldn't get it.
     
  13. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    But is it post partum depression two years after birth?
     
  14. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    I didn't think so, but a quick Google search gave me one site that says "in women who were not receiving clinical treatment, 30% of women with postpartum depression were still depressed up to 3 years after giving birth." So it looks like the answer is yes.
     
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  15. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I think there has to be something underlying and it just gets brought to the surface because of the stress of having a child. I'm sure many people can relate to serious frustration and the thoughts that go through your mind at the time. "This fucking migraine is killing me, I want to chop my head off!"

    The only difference is these people actually go through with their actions. What is it?
     
  16. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think that we're actually looking at postpartum psychosis here, which is far, far more serious than postpartum depression or anxiety, and also far less common. (Edited to add: One in one thousand mothers for postpartum psychosis, versus one in eight for postpartum depression.) It's a full-blown psychosis, complete with delusions, hallucinations, and wildly out of character behavior. Supposedly it's fairly brief when it's treated, but Googling doesn't tell me whether it goes away on its own if it's not treated.
     
  17. Ben414
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    Ben414 Contributing Member Contributor

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    It's sad that public health solutions are not looked into often enough in the US. It's possible the money spent on providing free treatment for such disorders would be less than the money saved/earned by avoiding criminal investigations, incarceration, loss of production from the parent and child(ren), etc. Even if providing free treatment would cost more than the money saved/earned, the difference would probably be small enough that it would be worth the moral/humanitarian gain by doing so.
     
  18. KaTrian
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    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I doubt there's an epidemic of baby murders going on, but considering the US has no universal healthcare and in some states, there are some rather discouraging abortion policies, I'd imagine the amount of "unwanted" babies is quite high. Some of their parents come around and make it work one way or another, some are driven into a corner and resort to the most horrific of solutions and kill or abandon the baby. Fixing your social security and healthcare might help, but there will always be women who commit awful crimes despite the society's best efforts.*

    Year by year, less and less babies are born in Finland, despite the baby box. It's not actively encouraging you to go and have a baby; it's not advertised anywhere else except in foreign media. I seriously doubt it's a factor in a couple's baby-making decision.

    I think we should hand out lots of rubbers and do away with our healthcare, social benefits, and awesome education if we wanted to manipulate people into making even less babies! (she said, tongue in cheek).

    *Not that we didn't have murderous mothers over here.

    You can access birth control easily. You can abort an unwanted fetus easily. You get money from the state if you can't work but need to buy rubbers. You can give birth at a hospital for free. The state will partially support your baby. In fact, the state is doing everything they can to ensure a healthy, prosperous environment for raising a child.

    Plus, free mental health care.

    And still this happens.
     
  19. Shadowfax
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    Shadowfax Contributing Member Contributor

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    Some children cry more than others...

    Our third child started crying when she was about 6 hours old. The nurses put her into the laundry cupboard (nice, sound-absorbing laundry) so that the other babies could get some sleep. They also recognised that my wife wasn't getting any sleep, so they said "You get some sleep, we'll look after her." Half-an-hour later, shift change. "Mrs X, wake up, your baby's crying". She cried pretty much 24/7 for the first 6 months. My wife hallucinated spiders, mice, you-name-it, running across the living room floor.

    If she'd been a first child, who knows? As it was, my wife knew the crying would end and just manned up and got on with it. (And, what goes around comes around...who was there to do CPR when my wife had a cardiac arrest?)

    Some people don't have the experience or the life skills to do that. Some people have enough baggage from their own childhood that it's the final straw.
     
  20. AlcoholicWolf
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    AlcoholicWolf Contributing Member

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    Post natal depression lasts for years if it isn't treated. You have the social branding which makes people avoid treatment. If we just practised compassion instead of judgment, maybe it would save lives.

    This is the problem for the government to solve.
     
  21. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yeah, I agree, forced psychological testing would be an invasion, and forced treatment would be even worse. And obviously forced abortions are a horrible idea.

    I was hoping there might be something other than force. I guess I agree with the idea of more help for parents, maybe even respite care or something. There's a clear link between education/financial stability and a lower birth rate, so I guess it would be good to keep working on that, too. We should be working toward not only Every baby a wanted baby but also some version of Every parent a prepared and supported parent. Big job, but I agree with those who say it would net out as a positive.
     
  22. matwoolf
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    matwoolf Contributing Member Contributor

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    Also today's older parents don't have the energy of a teenage Dad and Mom. Probably they snapped when the baby didn't re-boot, changed their minds about child-rearing, perhaps dropped it off a cliff, like high-speed from the highway, maybe in some kind of lifestyle vehicle and wearing sunglasses? Some people are better set for the office environment with an electrode maybe, child-free. Just ideas - about murderers.

    Frankly, I'm more worried about being murdered by my own children. Hopefully I'll get to them first. [UPDATE - slowly, not murder]
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
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