Need help developing an Eastern-European character...

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Link the Writer, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Ah, okay. Thanks for the note of caution. :)
     
  2. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    No prob. In the Estonian name list there was e.g. "Paavo." I don't know the connotations it has in Estonia, but in Finland it also means an idiot :D
     
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  3. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @KaTrian : In Croatian we have a name Pavo, same as Pavle in Serbian, Pavel in Czech, Paul in English. So Paul is an idiot :D

    @aikoaiko : In former Yugoslavia, thank god, we had none of those restrictions. We were I think the only socialist country at the time, in between East and West, allowed to travel like anyone else, you could own property, quality of life was actually really good. Most people either had holiday homes or could afford to go on holidays twice a year, flats were much smaller then in the West but they were functional and to be honest, most people didn't mind. Working hours were much nicer, all the public services were free and prices were very low because we used to produce 70% of all goods and services. We never had extreme consumerism such as in the West, with enormous supermarkets and loads of stuff, but we had imported stuff as well as domestically produced, and quality was very highly regarded. I have to say the quality of life there, before Tito died and whole country started to implode in an A bomb of nationalism, was much higher then it is now across the West, for everyone middle class and below. But you are right about the Eastern bloc, which includes Hungary, they were all very much 'behind the iron curtain'.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  4. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    @KaTrian- I'm suddenly thinking I shouldn't name this character 'Paavo'. :D
     
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  5. aikoaiko

    aikoaiko Senior Member

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    In former Yugoslavia, thank god, we had none of those restrictions.

    My mother is actually from the former Yugoslavia, but she was an ethnic German living in the town of Sekitsch (sp?). My grandmother said that it was a wonderful place to live and they had very good lives as farmers. The trouble came for them when they were forced to abandon it during WWII to escape Russians, after which they made their way to the US. I don't know anything about what happened there later----though I know that much later it did implode:(.
     
  6. Burlbird

    Burlbird Contributor Contributor

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  7. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @aikoaiko : That's so sad, I know that loads of people were forced to leave, even though not all collaborated. Anda lot of wealthy pre-war capitalists property was nationalised in those early years. Well, right now, Serbian government is receiving applications for return of property, from former citizens of German nationality who left after the Tito regime came. Thousands of applications have been approved, I don't know if your grandmother knows this, but even descendants can claim, I think.
     
  8. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I'd throw in some harmless, perhaps even almost endearing mockery and confusion from the Americans against Maurice (btw, change that name - NOT Slavic at all lol). You see, most of the racism happens not directly. Few would come up to your face and insult you (it still does happen. I'm Chinese-born, so I stand out as an immigrant immediately. I've had random hostility directed at me in both England and Czech Republic - but it's not often. Once a year, every other year?)

    Anyway, the racism you tend to experience is much more veiled.

    I've put the rest of my post in quotes because as always, I wrote another mini essay and wanted to save members who may not be interested from scrolling several miles before they get to the next post lol

     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  9. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    Please don't. :D It's one of those names that's perfectly legit and you do encounter it even today, but it is a silly name, usually associated with old codgers and dumbasses.


    @Mckk, sorry to hear about your experiences. My dad, being Bulgarian (black hair, slightly darker skin than Finns), has experienced a lot of racism here during the over three decades he's lived here. Finnish is one of the world's most difficult languages to master and not even non-native professors of the language always get the pronunciation right, so taking that into consideration, his Finnish is excellent, but people still latch onto the way he speaks.

    And then there's all the staring (the most frequent manifestation of racism), whispering, snide remarks (e.g. when he was at a meeting at his work place, a music school, he didn't agree with one guy's suggestion regarding changes to their curriculum and the guy accused him of trying to implement KGB-type rules. Seriously?), and even though he's worked in one music school for over two decades, he's never been offered a permanent position because, by God, he'd get better pay that way and his job would be more secure. And younger, newer teachers hired years later than him are given permanent positions because... ta-dah, they're Finnish. Oh well...

    The only racism I've encountered was as a kid. My surname is really weird for Finns, so I got a lot of shit for that as well as about how my dad spoke (when my "friends" were visiting) etc, but since I outgrew the victim phase, nobody's gone there again.

    A strange realization hit me once when I had been working for a few years in Finland's biggest book store: it's a part of a big chain known as a more expensive, refined, high-end department store with lots of Swedish influence (you know, svenska talande bättre folk, i.e. Swedish-speaking better people). Anyway, I realized that not one cashier in the entire complex (there were probably around 200 or so, at least) was black. We had a few Asians, but all the others were Caucasians. The only jobs black people got in that chain were as cleaners, warehouse workers etc, i.e. out of sight, out of mind. That wasn't a very proud day for me.
     
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  10. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Sorry that happened to your family. :( The Soviets were not very kind to those of German nationality, no matter who they were, I was told.

    I'm with @jazzabel on this one. Does she know she can file to reclaim her property?

    Wow, I really had no idea. Some of those people in your lists were colossal jerks/stupid. "You don't speak English, even though we've clearly been talking to each other in English for quite some time, lalalalala I can't hear you."

    #7 was just appalling. Really, she didn't think any of that was discrimination? Or is it only discrimination if she's the one being targeted? Sorry you had to go through that. :( I imagine the racism would be much more veiled, so the person doesn't get into trouble. Even if it was unintentional, it might still hurt, or get tiring really fast. Thanks for sharing your experiences, Mckk.

    Paavo is a good name. :D Though why would a parent name their kid something that means 'dumbass', I have no idea. :D It's a nice, if not a wee bit embarrassing name if you know what it really means.

    How does your dad put up with them? I imagine if a company kept putting me aside because of my nationality, or even blatantly accusing me of implementing KGB rules, I would sue the hell out of them. Or would no one listen because he's not a Finnish person?
     
  11. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    You can't sue anybody for saying something like that over here. In Finland, you have to do more than just insult someone or discriminate relatively covertly. For instance, if you falsely declared someone was a pedophile in public TV, that you could sue over (for slander), but not the smaller stuff (esp. since there's no recording of it and the others wouldn't "remember" the incident).

    And his bosses are legally free to decide who gets a permanent position and who doesn't and even if he did take it to court (if any lawyer even accepted the case as it would be considered very flimsy by our standards), it probably wouldn't fly because a lot of the discrimination can be explained away with bs and claims that he just misunderstood them, someone else had better credentials for whatever they needed at the time (be it true or not) etc. so that's why he decided to just do his job, teach the kids the best he could, and screw the politics. There were times when money was really tight and music schools aren't that abundant here (esp. in relation to available teachers), so quitting wasn't really an option. At least he's going to retire this year, so all that crap will soon be in the past.

    Then again, none of this is really surprising since Finland is among the world's most racist countries, right up there with Russia and Belgium.
     
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  12. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Wow. Good thing he'll retire and put all that behind him. Sucks he had to go through all that, though. :(

    Speaking of racist countries, is it also true that Japan is among the top of that list as well?
     
  13. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    @Link the Writer, it does suck, but he's got a pretty good attitude about it.

    And yeah, I've heard that the Japanese can be quite bad in that regard as well. And the French are often pretty uptight about language; some of my French-speaking friends (FFL speakers, including people who have majored in French at uni) have actually been yelled at by natives when they didn't speak perfectly and others who have tried to converse in English have either been insulted or completely ignored.

    But this is all just hearsay, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong. One thing I do have first-hand experience of, is Swedes who live in Finland. When I worked at that bookstore, there were plenty of rich Swedish customers who could speak perfect Finnish but chose not to because Swedish is Finland's 2nd official language and it's their right to speak it, but it's still a dick move if they see that the cashier doesn't have the Swedish flag on their name tag (we had name tags with flags of countries representing the languages we spoke), i.e. they know the cashier doesn't speak the language, yet they insist on speaking nothing else but Swedish.

    When I apologized to one such woman (of course in a fur coat with lots of tacky but expensive jewelry) for not speaking Swedish (I know a bit, but not enough to get the job done), she actually said to me "oh? I thought they required that cashiers have at least finished primary school." The funny thing is, since I couldn't do much else but laugh, she got even angrier and left. :D

    I was wondering if all this was veering a bit off-topic, but, then again, these are examples of the kind of racism the story's character might encounter.
     
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  14. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    I actually don't mind it at all. It's helping me understand the sort of discrimination Paavo may face among his peers.

    EDIT: Woo! 400 words in! :D I think it needs some editing, but I'll keep going for now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
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  15. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    Paavo might be a cool name in Estonia, so you have to check it :) Estonians sound very funny to us Finns, like they were Amishes or something, old-fashioned sounding, so there's no telling if something we use as an insult is perfectly normal to them. Paavo is an old name and not particularly popular nowadays over here (like in my age group, I was born in the late '80s), but it might be different in Estonia. Paavo is sometimes shortened to "Pave" ['pavɛ] which is actually an ok name and not used as an insult, but again, Estonians might have nicknames of their own.
     
  16. Marcus Burzum

    Marcus Burzum Member

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    Hi! I am french and I got many romanians people that work in my company, and I already go in Bucharest. They are very well dress (shirt/ dark jean / vest), they speak a very good english, can understand french, and are usually named Radu, Vlad or Cosma.

    A first notice: There is a huge difference of temper between young people (under 35 year old) and seniors: ones have know dictatorship under Nicolae Ceaușescu, the others capitalism. You have discreet Forty years old directing young wolves. They are very hard workers and even when they made higher education they have at 20 the work efficiency you will have at 28.

    Also don’t forget than xenophobia in western Europe involve very specific eastern ethnies (Roms for example) living in slums, send to west as child by mobsters to beg and steal.

    The huge issue with Roman in France and generally in Europa, is the very low labor price even in qualified area, causing many delocalization in Romania (like Louis Vuitton or Ubisoft). In my view Eastern country hate isn’t just a Xenophobia issue, but a real threat to western Europe economy.

    To give an idea about the price of every day life in Romania, a big restaurant for 5 persons is about 5 euros.
     
  17. aikoaiko

    aikoaiko Senior Member

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    Well, she's dead now, but her brother did go back to visit last year, and Serbs had sort of taken over the village and are now living in all their houses, LOL. They also dug up the German cemetery and threw the bones in a mass grave somewhere , so I guess no one felt inclined to go back. I have plans to write something about their history someday, because it is an incredible story and the culture ( they were Donauschwaben---Danube Swabian in English) is now pretty much extinct. Historical subjects about the various ethnicities are fascinating, don't you think? And great fodder for writers, too:)
     
  18. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @aikoaiko : Gosh, I know, it's just dreadful. The nazis did so much evil in Serbia, the revenge was terrible, and a lot of innocent people got caught out :(
     
  19. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    That's a really terrible thing to hear, @aikoaiko. It pains me to think of all the innocent Germans caught in the crossfire of revenge after WWII ended. :( I know the Nazis were evil, but to hear about what your grandmother went through, and the German cemetery being dug up and the remains discarded? Just horrible.
     
  20. Härmatis

    Härmatis New Member

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    I've lurked on this site, but I only just now got around to making myself an account. I know this is an old post, but I just wanted to say--nothing about the name Paavo sounds wrong to me, and I'm an Estonian. How far along are you with this story (if I may ask)?
     
  21. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Still working out the plot details and fleshing out the city Paavo lives in.
     
  22. Härmatis

    Härmatis New Member

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    Cool! If you need any information about Estonia or being Estonian that's not available on the internet, I'd be happy to help.
     
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  23. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Cool, thanks for the offer! :D
     
  24. Vandor76

    Vandor76 Senior Member

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    I'm new here but as I'm from Eastern-Europe and was working at multi-national companies for several years I have some experience on the subject to share :
    - People in Western-European countries are worried about loosing their jobs because of the cheap Eastern-European labour. This is not so common in the US.
    - For some people eastern-europeans worth less than western guys do and ideas coming from the east are always bad ideas.
    - If you work hard for years the above may change and the people you work with start to think about you as being equal to them. A new guy arrives and you need to start the whole thing again :)
    - Usually for people coming from a country far from Europe (for example from Asia) there are no western or eastern europeans. Just europeans. This could be a positive experience for your character.
    - About names : some names are so alien-sounding that people have no clue about gender. Sometimes it's just misunderstood : for example Karoly is the hungarian version of Charles but if it appears in an e-mail the reader sometimes assumes that it stands for Carolyn. Your protagonist may choose Maurice as a nickname because of this kind of problem.
    - Lot of people are proud to their culture or history but are not interested to learn other cultures.
    - An intelligent person accepts the fact that if (s)he moves to a foreign country (s)he needs to learn the rules and follow them. This learning process is mostly trial and error which means a lot of conflicts.
    - Immigrants tend to search for their fellows and there are clubs or groups of people from the same country who meet periodically. Maurice can attend these meetings as well.
    - From my experience the best thing a foreigner can do to get local buddies is to cook for them.
    - I always mix UK and US english because I simply don't know the difference. This is a great way to show the reader that a person is not a native speaker (someone living in the US longer than one year won't say "I go eat, you go with me?")

    Hope this helps

    PS : one more thing : language differences cause different thinking. In some languages words do not have gender. There is no he/she so people coming from such a country may know the basics (eg John is a he, Susan is a she) but will refer to a ship as he or it.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
  25. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    I'm too lazy to google right now, but I wonder if that was a Finno-Ugric thing. In Estonian (and Hungarian), do they have different pronouns for sexes? 'Cause in Finnish we don't and I'm telling you, I speak English every day and I still get she and he mixed up in speech and then have to stumble back and fix it. Pretty much all my students do, too.

    So to @Link the Writer: This could be something you can show in your character's dialogue if, indeed, Estonian also had just one pronoun for both sexes.
     
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