1. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    Never to early to start serious conflict?

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by GoldenGhost, Feb 3, 2012.

    So I have reached a bit of a cross roads in the novel I am currently writing. I started off the story with a little bit of minor incidents in hopes to keep the reader interested and tension hanging but most of the beginnig has been information intertwined with the onset of some of my subplots, ultimately setting up the overall plot. Not to bore you with serious detail but I have reached a point where my MC (who is a prince and ran away from home.) has recently reunited with his family. After spending some time catching up with his mother (the queen of this kingdom) filling her in on the events leading up to the runion and introducing her to some important support characters who will play large roles in the story he learns his Father was away on state business handling turmoil in another kingdom and will be returning soon. I had this idea that I was going to kill his father on the return celebration via accidental poisoning. One of my antagonists has a serious resentment towards one of the support protagonists and against orders from his master of no violence (regarding the MC and such) his blood lust gets the best of him and he tries to poison this guy. So he asks one of my protagonists who is hidden amongst the enterouage of my MC inside the castle to do it. I say accidently because at the feast scene, seats get changed at the last second (the queen asking this character to sit next to her instead of her husband ) so ergo the father dies instead of the intended target. I was hoping this could help start some of my MC's characterization as well.
    ANYWAYS
    the point of this thread was the Queen, after finding out her husband refused to aid the kingdom he was called by, assumes the death was by their hands (which it completely wasnt at all) because of his refusal and decides she is going to march against that kingdom and lay waste to their city. Which, I am very tempted to do because that sounds fun. The question though is, my novel is roughly 200 pages at the moment give or take, maybe less after I do some revisions, maybe more. Do you think its too early for something of this scale to happen? I hope this all makes sense and that the provided information was not too confusing.


    -Ghost
     
  2. Protar
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    Protar Active Member

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    Depends how long your book is going to be overall. For some books 200 pages is time for the climax, for others things have only just got rolling, or else it's in somewhere in the middle. Personally from what you've said, it seems as though it's taking place quite a way into the narrative and there's certainly nothing wrong with a fast paced fantasy series. In my current WIP, by the first half a dozen or so chapters there's been a major death and people are sent out to catch the culprit.
     
  3. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    Well, ideally I would like for the books to be around 600+ pages. That is kind of the goal I have in my head and I feel the information that is swirling inside of my brain can support that. As it stands, the main plot of the current book which is just a sub plot of the overal series of course, has not even physically begun. IT has been spoke about but my characters are in the dark and are currently searching for leads. The more I do think about this incident though, I find myself detering because I really have no clue/experience writing a battle of that scale. I think it could be cool to do though, if I could somehow learn/figure out how to pull it off. My ants have been told to wait in the shadows by the MProt and let my MC kind of do the work for them and were given orders not to hurt him or his friends but they could cause chaos within the world. So this would kind of create a situation where even though I characterize my villain as almost having standards/morals by yelling at his followers for killing an innocent, he ends up being happy because the by product is more chaos on a much much larger scale. A potential war, though I do not know where to even begin there.
    I have also entertained the idea of just having my head of intelligence/thief/spy character Assinate one of the rulers in that Kingdom. I really do not know. Maybe 200 pages is enough to start spicing it up. I have yet to have my MC enter a phase where he is trained in a sword and his powers. Decisions Decisions Decisions
     
  4. jazzabel
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    jazzabel Contributing Member Contributor

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    Definitely not too early, but you'll have to trump it in terms of excitement (not necessarily in terms of bloodshed) in your climax, whenever it occurs, I think.
     
  5. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    Maybe I could save the war and just assassinate them, creating tension between the nations and develop it from there, having the battle between the two become apart of the climax of the whole series?
     
  6. Protar
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    Protar Active Member

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    Well again it depends on the narrative. The assassination of a ruler is a very good reason to start a war, especially if there are already tensions between the two rivaling nations. I don't think you should bail out on a war just because you have little experience on writing such things. You're not going to get better by not writing it and if that's what the story calls for than that's what the story calls for.
     
  7. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    True. Well said. Thanks for the feedback
     
  8. RickySchaedeWrites
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    RickySchaedeWrites New Member

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    Sounds like a cool story. I don't think its too early, I think all you need to ask is if the Queen would do that, and think about what kind of experience and character arc starting a war will take her on. You can do some really cool things with the power hungry female in a feudalistic world character. A war is also such a large scale event that it will ripple throughout your entire story, giving you other opportunities down the road for great plot devices and ways to make things happen. Perhaps it is the war that brings about your MC's phase of learning, as it is necessity, and if the war touches all of your characters it weaves a thread between them that makes your world more connected realistic. Have fun writing!
     
  9. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    Good call man. Thanks for replying.
     
  10. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    Does anyone have any adice or resources regarding writing battles/siege scenes?
     
  11. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    See other current thread on the topic. Sheesh.
     
  12. Kallithrix
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    Kallithrix Banned

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    ...ouch...

    600 pages? I know fantasy runs kinda long compared to other genres, but if you're writing with a view to seeking publication, this is too long. A 600 page novel is about 180,000 words, and most agents/publishers won't touch a debut novel over 120,000 at most.

    And I also think page 200 is too far in to still have no sign of your main plot. Your main plot should be rearing it's head in the first few chapters, and by page 200 it should be in full swing. By page 300 you should be gearing up for your climax.

    But I get the feeling you're leaving all that for the (hinted at) later books in the series, which is just a bad idea all over.

    Make this current book your focus, and make sure it has a self contained plot, with a beginning, a middle and an end. Don't rely on finishing it off in books that you haven't even written yet, and which no agent or publisher will even consider unless this one storms it home.
     
  13. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I agree with Kallithrix. If you don't have anything major happening until after 200 pages in, you've probably already lost me as a reader. I doubt I'd be interested in reading 200 pages of subplots before the main plot starts up.
     
  14. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    Well the main plot is a Man vs God confrontation and he has shown himself but the current books plot is them searching for one of the supporting characters lost brothers for an important piece of information, information my main Prot needs and he has decided to let them do the work for them while they create chaos elsewhere eventually leading to a confrontation of minor prots and minor ants to face off and battle each other as they fight for this object. I really don't know. At this point im just putting words down to paper. Haha
     
  15. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    Right now someone suggested I could have the other nation's ruler assassinated in mistaken retaliation and lead up to a battle between the two (as part of climax for the current book) and while thats going on have my MC go out and find this piece of information and then have both plots come together in the end? what do you think of that idea?
     
  16. Kallithrix
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    Kallithrix Banned

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    Ok... your main plot for THIS novel entails supporting characters going off and doing stuff while your MAIN character sits there and twiddles his thumbs? And the big confrontation only involves MINOR characters facing off in battle?

    Ok, what the hell is your main character actually doing in this novel at all? Ditch the useless sod and go follow someone who is actually DOING something. Jeezuz wept...
     
  17. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    No my MC would be off searching for the most important thing in the story.. while the Queen his mother is starting a war at the beginning of this journey. the MC's confrontation is ultimately between him and the God behind the chaos. one of the main protagonists wants his mentor dead. I mean really the only way for anyone to give me any serious feedback on suggesting the direction is to read what I have. If your interested I would be more then happy to mail you what I have written so far, not for a critique on grammar and description and all the smaller details but to help discuss the direction of the plots and the adding/deletion/or progressing of one and the others
     
  18. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    as for the plot of the book i was going to insert a large fight scene when the object is found where the God shows himself to my MC for the first time and confronts him head on this being in the first book but not being the demise of the god. I had also entertained the idea of my MC losing the initial confrontation and the Prot's gain control of the object that they seek. But like I said its hard to talk about something when others are completely in the dark you know?
     
  19. Protar
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    Protar Active Member

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    Well remember that just because a war starts off quite late into the story, that doesn't mean that the story hasn't started yet. Look at A Game Of Thrones. The major battles don't start until like the last quarter of the book but there's still a lot going on before hand. Now that I mention it, A song of ice and fire would be a good read if you want to learn how to write battles.
     
  20. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    Well to be fair. What I have right now is about 140 pages.
     
  21. tristan.n
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    tristan.n Active Member

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    Is this story more about the war between the kingdoms or the prince dealing with the fact that he killed his own father and caused this mess? If he ends up stopping the war somehow, I'd say this is the time for your climax. If it goes on and he does something else, you could make another two hundred pages out of it if you wanted to. It simply depends on where you want it to stop.
     
  22. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    The Prince was not the one who killed his father.
     
  23. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    One thing to keep in mind is that if you're hoping to publish this book through a traditional publisher, the first book _must_ stand alone, rather than just serving as the starting point of a series.
     
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  24. RickySchaedeWrites
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    RickySchaedeWrites New Member

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    It sounds to me like the first book in your series is about the hero developing their chops by searching for the object, and also about the the king and queen, and her possible warmongering if youve decided to do that. Based on what you want to happen later in the series only you can decide what happens next in the book, but I think it would be interesting if the Queen was very successful in her war and ended up conquering a lot of land. In her power craze she could learn about the god/object and decide she wants the object so she can harness its strength for herself. The MC's mother as the main antagonist could add a lot of depth and emotion to the conflict.
    Im assuming the series is a struggle between factions to either destroy the god or harness the strength of the god in order to gain power? Or is there a faction that is just hell bent on death and mayhem? A little unclear about the antagonists you describe.
     
  25. GoldenGhost
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    GoldenGhost Contributing Member

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    This is absolutely brilliant. I had not even thought about that.
    Basically the story is this as follows. Most of the actual creation of the world being in the prologue: (please excuse the poor summary, I am not trying to turn this into a narrative although it may sound like it. I am merely trying to describe the premise of the book, no matter how badly written it comes out.)
    The universe is an entity in itself, with its own design and plan within the cosmos always existing in balance. It had created Gods to rule across the stars who could harness its power freely and channel the energy of the Universe, doing with it what they please. In one place specifically, two God's approached the Universe (Rathal the God of Choice and Maras the Goddess of Life and Nature) and asked if they could create life. The Universe granted them this request and aided them in their creation, which required much more of its energy then usual. Thus, the realm of Paal came into existence. After the creation of this world, came everything inside: the landscapes, the vegetation, bodies of water, the animals, and most importantly, its people. The two God's then sought fit to create 12 chosen women and men, called the Magi or in the Magi's language, "Bek'Tolmar' which means Protectors. These were to be the Soldiers' of the Gods' and were alloted the ability to channel the Universe's energy through them and the ability to communicate with these God's freely, to preserve and nurture Mara's seed, to maintain balance. They were also given the ability to live much longer then your typical man, so that they can serve the Universe and keep balance within the world, as Mara's seed grows. The only way they can be destroyed is by the energy of the Universe itself.
    After some time after creation, one of the Magi showed sign of illness which later became increasingly evident through seizure and episodic tantrums. In these tantrums, he sometimes would speak what was thought to be nonsense at first. Not long after they started getting more and more frequent, things he said started to happen. He had the gift of foresight. Not even the God's could have seen this, for they do not have the ability to see into the future. His brothers and sisters started recording what he said and compiled this information into what was later named the 'Prophecies of the Magi'. It started out small such as the weather, and events within the societies as they grew. Then they grew more specific, and talks of a rift between the Magi and a great war and other events that had not come true. At this point, his brothers and sisters thought his mind was quickly fading, though they kept recording, they paid little attention to his words. One of the things he spoke about, and often, was an object of great power. The God's new of no such object, and after rigourous searching, the Magi had come up with nothing. But there were some Magi, that were convinced of its existence and its power. And, there was another God, Sethal, God of Chaos, who tainted the minds of these ambitious Magi and promised them power and greatness beyond their imagining. The God's were sworn never to physically interfere with the lives of the people who lived in Paal. They were there to aid from afar. Sethal crossed these boundaries and defied their oaths. He made his presence known and sought these Magi out, for he wanted this object to himself, so that he may harness its energy and destroy his brothers and sisters, to rule the Universe and everything in it.
    Not long after Sethal started touching the land and the Magi he sought out, a rift broke out between the Magi. And the War that one of them predicted, came to be which would be later known as the War of the Magi. They were named in the Magi tongue, 'Pek'Tolmar' or Lost Ones. During the war, most of the Magi had destroyed themselves, and the few surviving went into hiding. The Bek'Tolmar out of shame and guilt for failing to protect Mara's seed and maintain the balance of the Universe, the Pek'Tolmar to continue their search for this object. In the War the Prophecies were given to one of the Protectors to hide. She dissapeared along with the Prophecies never to be heard from again.

    OK, with that said. Long story short (I know the previous rant is a lot of information, I apologize.) MY Mc discovers after a few choice events that he is actually a Magi that the Universe has called upon in order to restore the chaos that has already touched the land. So his goal for this book is to seek out the lost brother and other surviving Magi, the prophecies and begin to search for this object. (I have entertained the Idea of the Lost Ones gaining control of it first amongst other possible plans) My MC is also of royal backround (he ran away from home because someone wanted him dead as a result of the lifestyle he grew up living in) he was forced to return home and reunite with his family out of nessesity which brings me to what a lot of this thread has been talking about. Where I was maybe going to start a war to show the ever growing chaos and maybe, in this first book, culminate the first battle, between not only the Queen's forces attacking the kingdom for which she thinks is respsponsible for the death of her husbband, but in the first confrontation between the surviving Pek'Tolmar and Bek'Tolmar, and Sethal's appearance and first confrontation between him and my main character (which is the main confrontation he will have to face in the end, being forced to destroy Sethal) Having my queen as an Antogonist is very interesting for it adds much more depth, a possible rift between mother, son, and kingdom, and could eventually set her up to make a lot of mistakes (which adds to realism)

    I know this was a lot. I hope it makes sense and adds some clarity with the direction of the story. Yes, its poorly written and yes there are details that need to be worked out but this gives you a general idea.
     

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