Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JJ_Maxx
    Offline

    JJ_Maxx Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    502

    New Study Links Racism to Gun Ownership?

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by JJ_Maxx, Nov 8, 2013.

    I just read an article in the Washington Times that reported on a study regarding a link between racism and gun ownership.

    According to the article, researchers have found that the more racist beliefs held by a white person, the more likely the person is to own a gun.

    I find this rather interesting only because your standard individual will attach negative connotations to the research rather than understand exactly what the 'research' says.

    I have an issue with a loaded study such as this when it uses terms like 'more likely.' It often causes people to assume causation when there isn't any.

    For instance:

    Blacks are twice as susceptible to developing diabetes as whites and blacks commit more homicides with a gun than whites, therefore I could conclude that:

    People with diabetes are more likely to kill someone with a gun than those without diabetes.

    I think that these 'researchers' had an agenda and sought to make a rediculous connection that ignores so many other factors.
     
  2. erebh
    Offline

    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    467
    Location:
    Los Angeles
  3. Steerpike
    Online

    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    11,095
    Likes Received:
    5,304
    Location:
    California, US
    The impression people take will away depend on their ability to reason. As quoted in the article:

    "One person can read this and say gun owners are racists — and that’s not what it says,” said John Hudak, gun policy researcher with the Brookings Institution. “It says racists are gun owners.”

    In other words, it is unsurprising that people who have the sort of views that racists hold, particularly militant racists or militants of any type, or individuals who are paranoid about the government, and so on and so forth, are going to be likely to own guns. Makes sense. But when you turn it around and try to say if you own a gun, you're likely to be a racist, or in any other way try to link the two in that fashion, then you just don't understand how to interpret data.
     
    TessaT, jazzabel and HarleyQ. like this.
  4. JJ_Maxx
    Offline

    JJ_Maxx Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    502
    I don't really understand the correlation.

    I guess the question is applicability, or, as I like to call it the 'and?' factor.

    There's a missing step in all this, and that is what good could this data be used for? Data without applicability is just pointless.
     
  5. erebh
    Offline

    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    467
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    The correlation is a perfect example of racists being gun-owners who are not afraid to use them on a profiled black person knocking at his door at 4am - and this just in the news just a day or two ago.
     
  6. Steerpike
    Online

    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    11,095
    Likes Received:
    5,304
    Location:
    California, US
    I guess the only applicability, which is minimal, is that these kind of fringe elements like to arm themselves. Which is no surprise to anyone.
     
  7. JJ_Maxx
    Offline

    JJ_Maxx Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    502
    According to the article, the race of the homeowner is not known and there's no evidence of profiling or racism. Also, it was 2:30am, not 4:00am and the homeowner claims he suspected the woman of breaking into his house and his firearm accidentally discharged, which is a reasonable claim at that time of night.

    Therefore I assume that your theories are based on a pre-existing bias and not any rational, logical line of thought.
     
  8. JJ_Maxx
    Offline

    JJ_Maxx Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    502
    Knowledge alone is not applicability.

    I don't think this data shows that racism is a cause of gun ownership, rather that racism tends to be more likely in groups that also own guns. I don't think there is any correlation between the two, direct or indirect.
     
  9. Steerpike
    Online

    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    11,095
    Likes Received:
    5,304
    Location:
    California, US
    Well, if a high number of racists own guns, that's a correlation by definition. But it is a pretty meaningless correlation and doesn't really get you to any significant understanding of gun ownership in general.
     
  10. erebh
    Offline

    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    467
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    According to the news the home owner is white, apparently her car broke down or was crashed at 1.30am and she knocked the door at 4.30, police are wondering where she was for 3 hours. Maybe she staged a car crash and went on a burgling spree - as yet we don't know. With regards his gun going off 'accidentally', what else is he going to say with a dead black women with his bullet through her head lying at his feet?

    Don't assume anything if you want to keep this thread civil. By assuming I have a pre-existing bias and a lack of rational lines of thought you are essentially calling me a bigot. I await your apology, with all due respect Mr Maxx.
     
  11. JJ_Maxx
    Offline

    JJ_Maxx Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    502
    This information is not in the link you posted. Please provide a source for these statements.

    Erebh, there is no evidence so far in the investigation that supports any theory other than the one the the homeowner is claiming. You can make all the assumptions you wish, but they are not evidence-based, so what other basis are you using for your statements if not bias? Are you aware of additional evidence that suggests this was anything other than what is being claimed?

    I will not be apologizing for calling you out on your false assumptions. This isn't the place to bring in your biased, fallacious arguments with no bearing on the facts or evidence.
     
  12. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,605
    Likes Received:
    5,879
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    It's correct the study does not show "cause". It only looks at association.

    Whether or not it shows racists are gun owners or racism is more common among gun owners one needs to look at the study itself, and not the reporter's translation of it. What we need to know is what was the population that was looked at. I will post the link but I have to do something before I can look at it more closely.

    Racism, Gun Ownership and Gun Control: Biased Attitudes in US Whites May Influence Policy Decisions
     
    JJ_Maxx likes this.
  13. Steerpike
    Online

    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    11,095
    Likes Received:
    5,304
    Location:
    California, US
    Why do I get the feeling I already know what your viewpoint is going to be, regardless of how the data plays out?
     
    123456789 and Garball like this.
  14. erebh
    Offline

    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    467
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    You have fingers, you know what google is, off you go. I originally posted a link and asked a question, you attacked. If you want a civil conversation about the incident I'm sure you'll find your own sources.

    Please tell me where I made an assumption Mr Maxx, with all due respect Mr Maxx. So far, for all we know, the only evidence is a dead black woman, a crashed car and a white man who says he shot her. Oh and also that he didn't call police after he shot her.

    I never expect an apology from you but the fact that you keep twisting and turning like a fish on a hook shows everybody reading this thread will know how you are, Mr Maxx. For some strange reason you are defending this guy. Let's suppose the girl did stage her car crash and tried to break in to his house. Does this give him licence to be judge, jury and executioner? Or maybe she was dazed from the crash and did stumble to his house seeking help, does this give him rise to shoot her? How do guns go off accidentally? He loaded it, took off the safety, aimed it at her - oh shit his finger slipped... no, slippy fingers don't pull triggers.
     
  15. JJ_Maxx
    Offline

    JJ_Maxx Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    502
    You made the claim not proven by your source. It is up to you to prove it, not me.

    This supports the homeowners testimony.

    I think this is the reason why I will not discuss this anymore with you. You have a very strong confirmation bias that is ignoring any and all evidence at hand. You would discount a reasonable possibility to fit your pre-existing bias. You have already determined what happened and you refuse to look at any evidence that would contradict that. You seem unable to view this case objectively and there's no reason for me to waste my time with that.

    Take care.
     
  16. erebh
    Offline

    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    467
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    your words speak volumes about you - over and out!
     
    JJ_Maxx likes this.
  17. erebh
    Offline

    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    467
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I could have sworn you weren't going to dance this song with me...
     
  18. JJ_Maxx
    Offline

    JJ_Maxx Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    502
    That's the thing, I don't think the data actually says anything. Looking at the study that Ginger linked, this 'study' had no funding and some of the verbage seems to have an anti-firearm inclination.

    The introduction:

    There are some cherry-picked statistics in here that, in my opinion, do not give a unbiased view of the issue.
     
  19. thirdwind
    Offline

    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,351
    Likes Received:
    2,891
    Location:
    Boston
    I find it interesting that researchers from Australia and the UK chose to do this study.

    There is a racism problem in the US whether we want to admit it or not, but it's tough (some may say impossible) trying to measure how racist someone is. That's the first problem I see from reading the article. I'll have to go through the actual study before I make anymore comments.
     
    TessaT and jazzabel like this.
  20. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
    Offline

    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    2,319
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    Music Room #3
    But there are still 32,163 gun-related deaths each year, biased or not, those are facts.
     
  21. Steerpike
    Online

    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    11,095
    Likes Received:
    5,304
    Location:
    California, US

    That fact, in a vacuum, doesn't do much in terms of determining policy.
     
  22. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
    Offline

    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    2,319
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    Music Room #3
    I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "in a vacuum". Could you please explain?
     
  23. GingerCoffee
    Offline

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    17,605
    Likes Received:
    5,879
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I don't know, your confirmation bias maybe?, since I actually don't know. I thought it would be simple but the study focuses on gun law attitudes, I didn't see what would easily make it clear to me, I had to go, so I posted the link and cut my half-done analysis of the study to come back to when I could spend the time it needed.
     
  24. JJ_Maxx
    Offline

    JJ_Maxx Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,339
    Likes Received:
    502
    Well, I am a strong proponent of freedom of thought and freedom of speech so to me the issue is not with people being racist, but people doing racist things. I think we've done a lot in this country as far as making sure we punish people who discriminate against others because of race.

    The gun problem in our country really isn't a race problem, though, in my opinion.
     
  25. erebh
    Offline

    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    467
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Do you think racism is like being pregnant - you either are or you aren't or do you think there are different levels from Sloppy Joe throwing the odd N bomb to the Good Ol' Boy in a white sheet?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page