I am in Europe and don't understand the set up there.... Is Notre Dame university in South Bend or it's own city ? When I visit Wikipedia it talks about "The University of Notre Dame is located just to the north in unincorporated Notre Dame, Indiana." But I have no idea what that means. I have a European character driving from Chicago Executive Airport via the I294 and I 80. Anyone ?
The Wikipedia article on Notre Dame, Indiana offers a lot of explanation. Is there anything in particular there that is confusing?
Notre Dame is in South Bend, Indiana for all intense purposes. It's also home to the college football hall of fame.
I think, for all intents and purposes, Notre Dame is its own college community, but it situated itself with South Bend for a variety of reasons. It's not a completely self-sustaining city all on its own.
When I visit Wikipedia it talks about "The University of Notre Dame is located just to the north in unincorporated Notre Dame, Indiana." But I have no idea what that means. Is Notre Dame a town ? a city ? or part of South Bend ? That is my question. Lewdog says yes. I just don't know what that wiki sentence means.
Don't worry too much about it, Howard -- to be honest, most people in the U.S. don't really understand what it means, either. Different states and even sometimes different regions within states can have different geographical boundaries, with counties, towns, townships, cities, and incorporated and unincorporated areas of particular townships/boroughs/cities. So these things can vary a whole lot. In addition, often a postal address will have an assigned zip code that is designated as belonging to a particular town, even though the actual geographic location of the dwelling at the address is not in that town. I believe that Notre Dame is not technically within the town of South Bend, although it is often thought of as being in South Bend, because within that area, it's a relatively large town. But the mailing address of the university itself is considered Notre Dame, possibly because the University itself is so large that it has it's own zip code, and it has it's own "census designation," (which is something that isn't really related to zip codes, but is taken for census purposes.) For most purposes of your story, it's not going to make any difference. Is there a particular reason you need to address the exact locale and city? The university's mailing address indicates it's in Notre Dame, IN. For most people who were going to drive to Notre Dame, they'd probably say they were driving to Notre Dame if they're going for a reason connected to the university. If they're just going to that area, they'd probably say South Bend.
Normally I am not too obsessed with research ... But I did think people in the US would spot this ... I am relived to hear what you say Ok I get you. None I just didn't want to put South Bend and have people in the US immediately say 'hey that's stupid !' And if I didn't put it in South Bend ... say the same thing ... (You know ... those MILLIONS of readers I will get ..) I think that covers all of my worries. They are just flying in from London to question some people in the Uni for two days and out again ... so generalities are fine. Thanks for the comprehensive reply Liz !
If you click on that "Notre Dame, Indiana" link, that's the one that I said has more information. Some fragments from that page include: "Notre Dame is a census-designated place... ...it includes the campuses of three colleges... ...As unincorporated communities do not have a municipal government..." It's a fairly thorough explanation; while it still may have gaps, it would probably be most useful to read it and then ask about the remaining gaps.
@Howard_B, I live in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, area. Lots of Notre Dame alumni around here. When they drive over for the big games, they generally say, "We're going to South Bend." And for a game broadcast I have never, ever heard the sportscaster say, "Here we are in beautiful Notre Dame, Indiana." It's always "South Bend." "Notre Dame," as it's used around here, refers to the university, not the municipality where it's located. Granted, I'm not a big Fighting Irish fan. This is just what I've picked up. (If you want, I can ask the guy across the street tomorrow. He went there. ) PS-- Having earned a graduate degree from a certain university in the UK and having made friends with students from the Continent, I got into the way of referring to such an institution of higher learning as a "Uni." But be aware that that expression is rarely if ever used over here. Your British characters can use it; your Yanks, no.
Interesting. Thank you for that. It seems that this is indeed the local usage. But perhaps further afield the distinction is not made. It is a big country after all, I guess. I'll remember that. I didn't realise it. Thanks again.
Okay, just in case I'm repeating something someone has already said, I apologize. Notre Dame was not originally classified as a separate entity from South Bend. It WAS a part of South Bend. It was simply a school in South Bend. In fact, people often referred to it as, "Notre Dame, in South Bend". Why is it now called an unincorporated area? Well, there are two factors. The first is population. The population surrounding the University of Notre Dame has increased substantially in the past three or four decades. They even got their own zip code! The second part of that question has to do with population, too, to a certain extent. To apply to become an incorporated community (village/township/city) the permanent resident population has to be of a certain size. That population of the community around Notre Dame is certainly large enough to qualify as an incorporated community but, if and until they apply to their county for that status, they will remain an unincorporated (unofficially independent) community. Most large cities across America have such unincorporated communities. Many choose to remain unincorporated for the advantage of getting city services like fire, police, and water. Others may establish their own police department and even fire service, but utilities remain on city and county lines rather than putting in the money and labour to build their own sewage and water and other utilities. So, while, technically, Notre Dame is a part of South Bend, it is, for all intents and purposes, it's own independently functioning community. I doubt if any of that cleared up much but I hope you found some answers in there.
I think it shows that Howard doesn't have much to worry about, whether his character says he's going to South Bend or to Notre Dame.
Hey there thewordsmith MANY thanks for all of that information. I was wondering what this incorporated thingamabob was ... I had never heard of it before. Now I understand it even MORE than before . I might even be able to incorporate (pun!) some of that into my book... Thanks again.
Just in case this is still a concern - an unincorporated place in the U.S. is a place that falls outside the city limits of any city, has no local government, but is referred to by a certain name by the people who live there. Another more technical name for the same thing is a "Census Designated Place" - a place that appears on the census for the purpose of counting people but has no city-level local government. In the U.S. - the country is divided into states, then counties, then cities or towns. Unincorporated communities usually have the physical properties we associate with towns, but since they fall in areas outside the jurisdiction of any town, their law enforcement and such is going to be handled directly by the county-level government. Here's a real-world example. I used to live in Falcon, Colorado - an unincorporated community. If you drive through Falcon, it has all the features of a town, but really it's just a cluster of buildings build on county land. We actually had a vote a few years back on whether to formally incorporate a local governement, and the people rejected the propoasal on the grounds they didn't want more taxes to pay for it. Technically for government purposes - people in Falcon are considered citizens of "unincorporated El Paso County". However, if you send a letter to someone in Falcon - you address the letter to "Peyton, CO"...Peyton being the closest incorporated town with a post office and Falcon being considered generally within the Peyton area. Although, if you address an envelope to "Falcon, CO" it still gets there. In the case of Notre Dame University - it probably sits in the metro area of South Bend but technically outside the South Bend city limits. So, technically it's in a Census Designated Place called Notre Dame on land governed by the county. But nine out of ten people are going to say it's in South Bend, and most people sending mail there are going to address their letters to "South Bend, IN"
Thanks for that. This method of local government/administration is so totally alien here in Europe. Fascinating (and may I say ... weird ! ...) Tks again.
It's always interesting to look into different ways people organize themselves. For practical purposes - since you do Thrillers - the important thing you would notice visually is law enforcement. If it works the same way in Indiana as in Colorado - if a crime is committed at Notre Dame, the first responders (other than Notre Dame's campus police force) are NOT going to be the South Bend Police Department - it's going to be the St. Joseph County Sheriff's Department. "Police" here are city-level cops, and their department is headed by Police Chief hired by the city government. County-level cops are always the "Sheriff's Department" and individual officers referred to as "Deputy" rather than "officer". The department is headed by a popularly-elected Sheriff.
Oh and just because I re-read your original post - if you're driving on the Interstate - the cops are neither the city police or county sheriff...it's the State Patrol. Somewhere we decided that the state-level government has jurisdiction on Interstate highways.
