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  1. Raven
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    Raven Banned

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    Pakistan's Bhutto assassinated

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Raven, Dec 27, 2007.

    Pakistani opposition leader Benazir Bhutto has been killed in a gun and bomb attack after a political rally in the city of Rawalpindi.

    "She has been martyred," said party official Rehman Malik.

    Ms Bhutto, 54, died in hospital after reportedly being shot in the head.

    Police said a suicide bomber fired shots at Ms Bhutto as she was leaving the rally in a park before blowing himself up.

    "The man first fired at Bhutto's vehicle. She ducked and then he blew himself up," said police officer Mohammad Shahid.

    Police said 16 people had been killed in the blast.

    A witness said he saw about eight bodies on a road as well as a mutilated human head.

    On October 18, a suicide bomber killed nearly 150 people in an attack on Ms Bhutto as she paraded through the southern city of Karachi after returning home from eight years in self-imposed exile.

    Earlier, gunmen opened fire on supporters of another former prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, from an office of the party that supports President Pervez Musharraf, killing four Sharif supporters, police said.

    Mr Sharif was several miles away from the shooting and was on his way to Rawalpindi after attending a rally.

    Mr Sharif, who was overthrown by Mr Musharraf in a 1999 coup and allowed back into the country just last month after seven years in exile, blamed supporters of the pro-Musharraf party for the violence.

    But a spokesman for the party denied that its workers were involved.
     
  2. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, I heard this as breaking news this morning. It is a very bad =day for democracy in Pakistan, and a good day for groups like Al Qaeda who find a safe haven in Pakistan.
     
  3. lessa
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    lessa Contributing Member

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    Sad and scary at the same time.
     
  4. mammamaia
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    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    i'm sure musharraf is delighted... whether he helped the deed-doer/s along in any way may never be known, but he sure didn't do anything to deter them... yet another great loss for women, muslims, pakistanis, the world... and another great gain for dictators and religious despots the world over [names supplied on request]!
     
  5. ANT (Bar YOSEF)
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    ANT (Bar YOSEF) Contributing Member

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    I was really shocked. I admired her courage that in the face of danger she wanted to bring democracy to Pakistan. I hope her memory is honoured and an election is held and that her murderes are brought to judgement; by the courts and by Allah himself.
     
  6. Raven
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    Raven Banned

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    Sadly I doubt that.

    These are dark times we're entering.
     
  7. Hulk
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    Hulk Banned

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    Indeed
     
  8. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    I do hope! Because I'm interested to know what Allah really thinks of her.

    Anyhow, it's really good to know all of you are safe, and I hope you remain so...and yeah Mr. Mushy is probably at person who did it! I'm just praying that the story reaches a suitable ending.
     
  9. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    She was exactly one month younger than me, and apparently was attending college just up the street from me (although she started college before I did). I might have passed her in the street and never knew. The world is indeed small
     
  10. Neha
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    Neha Beyond Infinity. Contributor

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    I was like so stunned, I mean, she had been my idol from the day I first read her life story, when she was making plans to return to Pakistan, in fact just this morning me and my friend were discussing killing Mushy, he was like, Mushy should be burned with H2SO4 or something and that they'd label us terrorists then. I like so agreed. Because terrorist or not, even if all our intention are to kill the rogues, or even defend ourselves in a fight, or if we are doing nothing, just living life, even then every small attack is blamed on us, Why all because we are Indians or Pakistanis?? Because we are Muslims or because we are Sardars and wear turbans, which according to them is a great place to hide immunations. I mean what is our fault? Is it that we are not white??? And all because of a handful of people?? And these people are so bound by hate that they kill anyone who tries to speak for their rights, even if the person speaking is of their own race

    I'm sorry, I guess I said too much, forgive me if I hurt anyone but even though I'm only 14, I do feel very strongly against all this. May God bless those people who are the real PAkistan, and save the nation from people like Mushy and Al-Qaeda, who think they can replace God.
     
  11. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    I appreciate your emotions as a Pakistani, ray, and I guess you're right Cogito.

    I problem are not these handful of politicians or Al-Qaeda (which I am convinced that it is a fabricated story, nothing else), but the people of Pakistan. We suffer from insenstivity and inhumanity (if that even is a word). People are least pushed (excluding the illiterates who are doing strikes) by this incident and all they care is about themselves. The illiterate people are stupid enough to attack their own fellow beings, and the literates think they are 'superior' and don't want to do anything for this country. They believe it's all Mushy's or Bush's (no offense, but he isn't the type I'd cheer for, EVER) fault, but it's NOT. It's OUR fault. It's a 165 million country, out of which 20,000 are in control? 100,000? 1 million max? Then what about the 164 million people? what about them? Don't we have any responsibility to our nation?
    If someone asks a Pakistani today if he or she is ready to speak loudly against wrong and is ready to run for government for the sake of the people, they'll laugh it off and tell me: 'Do you want to die?' No, I sure don't want to die, but I will die eventually so isn't it better to do something worthwhile before dying than to grump against Mushy and do nothing? I believe, we, as a nation, have no right to complain against wrong when we ourselves are showing no commitment to it. Our duty is first to the state and then to our individual selves - being a Pakistani is not being born in Pakistan or having nationality of Pakistan, it's showing commitment to our country. It is OUR duty to work against this brutality and anarchy. How can, a bunch of lunatics, overcome ONE SIXTY FOUR MILLION PEOPLE? A good quote is: 'The oppressed are more at fault than the oppressor.' (I don't know the author) If we are oppressed, we HAVE to speak against it. Especially when we can! Look at me, for instance. I have access to internet, TV, printer, scanner, camera, education, publication, knowledge - and most importantly - life. But i only use it for my benefit. What of the country? The country which feeds me, clothes me, in which I am born, and whose name i join with my identity - I AM A PROUD PAKISTANI, kids say. What pride Of being a selfish brat who can't do one thing for the country, and that is to not lie? Not to cheat? Not to lie in the name of God? Not to cheat and steal from the very country in the name of which we sing the National Anthem each day? Not to snicker when the National Anthem is read? COULD SOMEONE (well, I'm the only Pakistani here so, me) ATLEAST DO THAT!

    Sorry, just had to let you know how I feel about this.
     
  12. ANT (Bar YOSEF)
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    ANT (Bar YOSEF) Contributing Member

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    I hope if there is a God up there that he puts an end to this madness, once and for all!
     
  13. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    I'll just add a Hindi quote, which is, however, very true:
    'God's house is gradual, but not hopeless.'
    And to top it off, a principle of life:
    'Everything happens for a reason - a good reason.'
    Which is my belief and somewhat my motto.
     
  14. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    Banzai you and the bible are correct.
    Too bad for us this is the 'season of war'.

    With Bhutto dead Pakistan is on the verge of civil war. Unless Musharraf can pull something out of his hat he is a dead man, and that will mean a religious civil war.
    The Islamic Extremists (I'm talking about the people who believe suicide bombing civilians is a good idea, not the more numerous moderate Muslims), seem to have people throughout the military and more importantly the Intelligence agency who support them. With Bhutto out of the way and Musharraf incredibly weak expect them to push things over the edge.
    Unless the secular and moderate citizens of Pakistan can stand united and prepare to fight tooth and nail against the extremists, Pakistan is going to look a lot like Afghanistan under the Taliban very soon.
    That would be bad for the region, but right now that is bloody terrifying for the world.
    Pakistan has nukes. They are sitting nicely in their silos waiting to be used. If the extremists get their hands on them, all bets are off. They could be launched at India to get India out of Kashmir. They could be used to hit NATO forces in Afghanistan to help their Taliban allies. They could be sent to Iraq to force the infidels out of the Holy Lands. Or they could be dismantled made into smaller more portable bombs, and sent to a harbour near you.
    The worst part is, if it looks like Extremists will take over, India or the US will launch a preemptive strike, to destroy the nukes. That will galvanize Pakistan and probably rally the people against the external enemies, giving the Extremists the boost they need to take over the country virtually bloodlessly. Destroying the nukes would be better for the world, but Pakistan would be destroyed as a growing nation for generations.

    Now I don't think Musharraf was behind the assassination. He has too much to lose. But he was stupid. He should have done far more to protect her. Even though he couldn't stand her, he should have realized the moment she died he became a dead man. The average Pakistani doesn't like him. The military has been growing restless, he barely controls the intelligence agency, and he has a virtual civil war with the tribal groups on his border.
    Having Bhutto come back to help form a stable civilian government was his last card. Now all he can do is hope enough of the military supports him to keep his head and maybe keep the major cities calm.

    If Pakistan falls expect to see a lot more blood, death and destruction as it becomes a training ground for terrorists all over the world.
     
  15. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    Better remind my mom about the immigration.

    Well, that's what most rich Pakistanis would think of right now.

    But I guess it's no use.

    We are still Pakistanis, in our mind, soul and blood. The shame will travel with us no matter how 'Amercanized' or 'Canadized' we become.
     
  16. ANT (Bar YOSEF)
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    ANT (Bar YOSEF) Contributing Member

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    I have hope anthraxx. That the ordinary pakistanis, the rational pakistanis will put an end to this. How can a military of only a few hope to suceed against thousands. Gandhi brought down an empire through non violence, bringing India and Pakistan into existance. NOw lets hope the people can do the same to rescue it.
     
  17. mammamaia
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    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    the 'how' is a no-brainer!... it's called 'arms, ammo, tanks, bombs, nukes'...

    sorry, but dictator musharraf's military is not the comparatively benign british raj of long ago, ant!... and unless the people of pakistan have the full support of the west, led by bush [who's welded himself to the dictator], they haven't a prayer... the so-called 'elections' will be rigged to keep pervez in power and if he's brought down any other way, he'll just be replaced by a clone...
     
  18. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    Bush welded himself to Musharraf because at the time there was no one else. For most of the time from 2001 to 2007 Musharraf has been the only leader in Pakistan able to do anything that would remotely favour the West.
    It was Bush and other Western Leaders who pushed Musharraf into allowing Bhutto to return. Musharraf didn't want her back, and if the US hadn't been saying become democratic (even if it was only appear democratic) or we'll become upset, Musharraf would not have been likely to change the status quo.
    Thats why a lot of world leaders including Bush are going "Oh Dear God!" now that Bhutto is dead. They're back to dealing with only Musharraf and they know thats not a good option.
    The West saw Bhutto as the best hope. If she and Musharraf could form at worst a semi-working government, at best an actual alliance, it would have united the military, and the common people against the Extremists. Which is what Bush and the West want.
    That won't happen now, so the West is left flapping in the wind as their plans, which would have helped Pakistan, fall to pieces.
    Right now if someone could step in to take Bhutto's place, the West would support him or her enthusiastically, simply because they have no other choice.

    ANT that is a nice thought, but like Maia the few thousand will likely crush the millions. Ghandi only succeeded because he was fighting a rational foe, that actually worried a little about the people they had colonized. They didn't want to shoot unarmed people because they believed it was wrong. So except for a few instances they met Ghandi's peace movement relatively peacefully.
    The Pakistani military will if they are ordered break protests. They may not kill many people, but they will break it by any means necessary if they are ordered to.
    The bigger threat the Extremists who believe anything they do to further Allah's will is justified are scarier. They see blowing up unarmed civilians who are simply going to market and might not do a single thing to oppose them as justified. What do you think they will they do if thousands of people peacefully protest against their actions?
    Probably thank Allah for putting all of their enemies in one place and start shooting.

    When I said the military and the people had to stand together and fight tooth and nail I meant. The people of Pakistan have to be prepared to have their own French or American Revolution to keep what they have. If the military will support them good. If the military won't it has to be changed as well.
    Pakistan is at the stage where the only choice it has is to fight, now it has to decide who and what it is fighting for.
     
  19. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    The problem, Domoviye, is here.
    Who and what are they fighting for?
    Lower Class:All we want is to live.
    Lower Middle Class: Bah, it's all politics. Allah will find us away. (Note: Allah helps those who help themselves)
    Middle Middle Class: Just let me get my daughter married, things will become better and then bhai sahab (my husband) will persuade the neighbours to do some small-scale protest.
    Upper Middle Class (us): I'm saying, better immigrate to UK or Canada, or at least STOP YAPPING ABOUT HER DEATH!
    Elites: What big? Mushy is my good friend. Nothing will happen to us.

    We desperately need a leader right now, but Imran isn't a good enough political personality. We need a good political personality who is for the people ONLY. Who won't get bribed into ruining our country and won't go crazy about power. Which, is living in a fool's paradise as of now. The problem is, for such a person to emerge he has to be one of us. And none of us apparently care. Even the riots are basically either PPP or criminals taking advantage of the situation and looting banks etc.
     
  20. Domoviye
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    Domoviye Contributing Member

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    Anthraxx I agree with you. Pakistan does not a have a leader capable of rallying the country.
    So Pakistan is all too likely going to fall into civil war as the border tribes that want everyone to follow their extreme version of Islam march into the cities with the support of criminals, and the poor. While the military tries to hang onto power. Everyone else will be caught in the middle.
    After that smoke clears, likely with the Extremists victorious, they'll all too likely set up training camps for Islamic terrorists and start sending them out into the world. That is their fight, and they will make it Pakistans fight as soon as they take over.
    That is what I meant by choosing who and what to fight. If the majority refuse to choose a side (even their own side), it will be chosen for them.
     
  21. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    Gah. My father wrote a timetable for what will happen till June. I don't believe in predictions and stuff, but hey, Dad's timetable is actually amusing. If it happens I don't expect to complete my studies in this life (which is, the only life I have). He loves destruction (of course, like the way we love destruction...get it?).
     
  22. ANT (Bar YOSEF)
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    ANT (Bar YOSEF) Contributing Member

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    If the WEST (Bush's lovers and slaves) rally behind the people of pakistan, all this will be resolved. Hoever, Bush and musharraf are welded to each other so it is unlikely.

    Who knows the US may invade, they like interfering in other countries politics.
     
  23. Charisma
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    Charisma Transposon Contributor

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    I'll let my personal opinion about this come out. It is preferred you don't take it personally.

    I don't believe the Muslim extremists have anything to do with any of the incidents that have occured - let it be 9/11, Lal Masjid issue and other bombings. They do exist - but definitely have nothing to do with this. I think Al-Qaeda is a fabricated tale, and that's why I disagree with Domoviye about the fact that Muslim extremists will go on and do anything. They're not literate enough to do it, and Osama bin Laden barely exists.
    Then Bush. Frankly, I hate him more than I hate Mushy, because he is technically ruling Pakistan, and he has told tales to the entire world about 9/11 and stuff. I don't believe them for several reasons, but they are irrelevant to the topic. If someone is going to come to the country after Mushy it's Bush. I'm sorry to disappoint a few people who really respect Bush (I respect him for the flourishing rule in USA, anyhow) but it's my opinion.
    Though other speculations made by other users are correct in my opinion, that rioting will follow. And we have to get a leader and purpose.

    EDIT: PPP has agreed to contest elections on January 8th. Woot, that improves some part of the violence.
     
  24. Domoviye
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    Good. Continuing the elections is the best chance Pakistan has of remaining stable.

    And I will politely disagree with you Anthraxx over the other issues. We each have our opinions, lets not try to force them on each other. And to be perfectly honest I don't think Bush did a great job, he was just better then the current alternatives.
     
  25. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Elections have been pushed back to March at the earliest.
     

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