1. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England

    Paradise Lost anyone?

    Discussion in 'Book Discussion' started by Lemex, Jan 3, 2012.

    As I've hinted elsewhere on this forum I love Paradise Lost by John Milton. Anyone else read it? Anyone else like it?

    Myself: I've read it twice now, and I am planning writing about it in a historical context; arguing how far Milton's experiences during the English Civil War influenced the poem.
     
  2. Cacian
    Offline

    Cacian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,907
    Likes Received:
    5
    Hi Lemex
    Thank you for bringing this up.
    I will attempt to read it and discuss it with you if that is Ok with you.
    May I ask you why you love Paradise Lost?
    I am looking at it now and it looks again very 'heavy' stuff at first glance.
    My question is for now
    what is the true meaning of 'SIN'?
     
  3. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    I love Paradise Lost because to me it is what Epics should have became (much like the background of the poem itself now that I think about it). It is a vast moral maze, making you question everything about yourself and your own morality, in which you are never fully sure when reading who you are rooting for the most: God or Lucifer. It's about an epic struggle for the souls of man kind between an omnipotent, vengeful god and a likable, flawed, very human fallen angel - this is, in some form, a struggle inside us all.

    The fact that it was clearly influenced by the English Civil War and the Restoration of the Monarchy, raises even more questions.

    Also, Milton wrote the book when he was on the run and blind. What is not to like?
     
  4. MichelleHall99
    Offline

    MichelleHall99 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can't wait to get my hands on this.
     
  5. Cacian
    Offline

    Cacian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,907
    Likes Received:
    5
    Haha...me too.
    :D
     
  6. Cacian
    Offline

    Cacian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,907
    Likes Received:
    5
    @Lemex

    How can one be on the run andblind at the same time.
    It musthave been a hell of a run to be honest.
    Strangely enough Dante was also on the run( well in exile) and also wrote an epic poem of considerable importance.
    A coincidence or just a coincidence?
    Interesting indeed.
    True.
    My question then is this:
    Who helped write it for him?
    In what ways does it raise questions?
    Do you mean it is a political poem with a political agenda since Milton was on the run?
     
  7. Cacian
    Offline

    Cacian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,907
    Likes Received:
    5
    Now my first question is with regard to the Original Sin.

    what is your interpretation of sin?
    1) In accordance to the Seven deadly Sins?
    and
    2) In accordance to your own understanding of what sin is?
     
  8. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
     
  9. Cacian
    Offline

    Cacian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,907
    Likes Received:
    5
    Funnily enough Milton has been to Florence too
    This is interesting about Milton
    what I am having problems with is that for a republican it seems strange to write Paradise Lost which is based on The Fallen Man , Adam and Yves and the Original Sin.
    According to what I know is that royalists and religious go hand in hand and republican tend to assimilate more to paganism.
    Then again this is just MY speculations and I might be totally wrong of course.
    I agree.
    with morality comes deeds of course.
    for example
    thy shall not steal is a morality and a deed.
    Stealing is a crime in any society and is also a sin according to the seven deadly sins.
    The Original Sin is about picking an apple from a tree.
    It is a bit like saying to someone don't do that and we know that reverse psychology is correct.
    It in human nature togo against what you told them not to do/and not a sin because it is within us .
    The original sin for me is more a disobedience but in a childishmanner( no harm done), meaning no one was harmed in the making or the taking of the apple.
    As oppose to STEALING for example which is an act which affects other people around you.
    This is a possiblity of a sin.
    The apple tree is not in my eyes.
    It is simply a human response/a reaction to a no which we all know will lead to a yes.
    Hence my questioning to the Original Sin and what it entails.
    Authority and power of another is more like it to me.
    It is not about the law or breaking it is about control of one over another which I find difficult to believe of a god who created his people.
    We break the law all the time wether that is affecting God is another matter.

    I am not following here.
    Why is that disturbing?
     
  10. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Milton was a sort of ambassador and a translator for the Commonwealth and Republic, and Florence (I think) was still a city state in Milton's day.

    Being Republican (or, more accurately, a Parliamentarian) would not make you a pagan. Why would it? Especially at a time when Christianity was pretty much total.

    If you don't see this, you don't see it. I can't help you here. But if you don't find this question disturbing then you'll just not 'get' Paradise Lost, considering Lucifer is the protagonist.
     
  11. Cacian
    Offline

    Cacian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,907
    Likes Received:
    5
    sovereing usually means decendant from God. Remember Joan of Arc.
    A republican is not a sovereign hence not religious.

    That is not what I mean.
    I am reading and researching it and I am trying to make links and understand such a lengthy poem remember it is a poem first and foremost and not a novel/story.
    I write poetry first and foremost and the way one reads poetry tends to be entirely ''a personal experience'' because it is what it is.
    You made an assumption that it was 'disturbing'. I am trying to understand why you made this assumption.

    He is the protagonist because he led a 'war against god' hence is considered a rebel which would link nicely with the reasons why this was written.
    By the sounds of things it almost feels that this poem is also written again against the church and religion which explain a republican's motives hence your post.


    Do you know what is happening in this verse?

     
  12. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    The Parliamentarians were all Christians, or at least they claimed they were as to say or think otherwise would have been punishable with death, on both sides. In fact, Oliver Cromwell was a Puritan. The English Civil War brought into real question the Divine Right of Kings as a political force in England.

    How is it an assumption to find the idea that a strongly religious man like John Milton would devote most of his life to writing an epic poem centering around Satan, and presenting him in the way Milton does. Milton made the devil one of the most complex and sophisticated, and arguably tragic characters in all fiction. There is also the question of who he intended Satan to represent. And this isn't disturbing?

    Honestly? Aside from the glaring fact that you haven't actually read it, to think Paradise Lost is this simple is - quite frankly - naive.

    You read it and tell me. I can't keep holding your hand with this stuff.
     
  13. Cacian
    Offline

    Cacian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,907
    Likes Received:
    5
    I am reading it but to assume that by reading one simply can understand is naive.
    This poem was written for a reason political or whatever.
    In order to grasp what this is about one needs to understand have this Milton who not only was blind and also in the run.
    One also needs to understand the idea behind this political agenda which republican agaisnt Monarchy.
    I am not a republican and therefore to try to understand their motives is totally lost on me.
    I do not share and will not share the same views.
    I have explained the reasons behind how one reads poetry. One is entilted to make of it what one feels about it on the day.
    I mean by just looking at the size if this 'epic poem' I feel already that my attention span is at lowest because not only it is ambigeous but also hefty and too long.
    Besides this point anyway, in order to fully grasps what is going on one needs to know the Bible inside out which is not easy so research is what this work entails.
    well this says it all that he was not a friend of God but more of keen devil admirer who knows hence the 'disturbing' bit.
    the question is why did it end up tragic I am not to know.
    Maybe tragic in the sense that the devil was sent out of Paradise.

    I am not seeign the difference BILAL and Lucifer again is this meant to confuse?
    Again ELI was a priest who became an atheist and had sons.
    Is there a link between the three?
     
  14. Lemex
    Offline

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,507
    Likes Received:
    3,151
    Location:
    Northeast England
    ... this is nonsense. There is no other way to understand a poem than by reading it and going through it, and reading around it if it isn't contemporary. It's like saying you understand and enjoy a painting without actually seeing it. You need to really take time with these things.

    Which is why you read the poem, and read around the poem if it isn't contemporary. We don't need to read around much of Shamus Heany or Philip Larkin, because they are very recent, within our life times, and we can understand them well enough without needing a history book. Dante, Milton, Shakespeare, Chaucer; these are not contemporary writers, and thus we read around their works, and about the times in which they lived.

    These things are called Epic Poems for a reason.

    Which is why I don't think you'll 'get' Paradise Lost. It's a poem in which you really need to see things objectively, not from subjective bias.
     

Share This Page