?

Well [one vote each, so think carefully].

  1. Monster - but it's really people's fault

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Misunderstood - it is people's fault

    3 vote(s)
    60.0%
  3. Other

    2 vote(s)
    40.0%
  4. Monster - the dog is at fault

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Misunderstand - but the dog is still at fault

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. Aire
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    Aire Banned Sock-Puppet

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    Pitbulls - monsters or misunderstood

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Aire, Oct 25, 2015.

    So I had an interesting conversation with my employer yesterday.

    My employer is a pharmacist, so educated, and quite on the ball, he is knowledgeable in a wide range of things.

    The thing is, is his pharmacy is a methadone clinic and as such 95% of his clients are junkies and it is set up in a yes lower-class area [most of the people are criminals, and proud of it actually as we've had people actually brag how they're professional boosters (thieves)] of the city.

    The reason why I am saying this is because all he knew of pit bulls was what he saw outside his pharmacy's doors [before the breed were banned throughout the area] and that was vicious dogs attacking one another and even going aggressively at people.

    I can't hold it against him if he never researched the breed - why would he? It's not his dog breed nor as he lives in a neighboring city would he care for it.

    But it brought to mind an age old argument I have had routinely with my mother. She hates them. Regardless of the times that I have told her it's not the dog, it's the people - and explained the history, and the abuse of the breed - she still thinks them vile.

    So what do you think?

    If you're going to comment one way or the other, please bring logical reasons and not emotional reasons [e.g. I really don't care if you simply hate them, give me a reason why you hate them]. I have also included a poll for voting to avoid any comments that may cause a ruckus.
     
  2. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    I've known and loved several pitbulls - gentle, silly, loving family pets. I think they can be wonderful dogs.

    But they're powerful.

    And they're appealing to the kind of irresponsible, cruel jackasses who want a powerful dog in order to use the dog as a weapon.

    There's nothing dangerous about a chunk of metal. But when that metal is forged into a gun and given bullets, it becomes dangerous. A well-bred, well-raised pitbull is a joy to be around, but when it's bred for aggression and trained to attack, it's dangerous. No easy answers.
     
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  3. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    I hate when people blame an entire breed because some people don't know how to properly train and socialize their pit bulls. I've known several pit bull owners throughout the years, and all of the dogs are very friendly. They'll run up to you, start licking you, etc. It all depends on the owner. Come to think of it, some of the most well-trained dogs I've ever come across were pit bulls, dobermans, and rottweilers.
     
  4. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    They are dangerous beasts, no question.

    My sister in law has one, and I always dread going to her house. As soon as I walk in, she runs at me! And the floor is tile, so when she tries to stop, she just slides and bumps into me. I fear one day she may knock me over, then I'd be at her mercy. And her tail wags so hard, it bruises me every time it hits my leg! Then when I sit, she jumps on my lap. She's too heavy to sit on my lap -- she could to break something! And the licking! Oh my goodness, the licking! It's like she has no concern for her own tongue. What if she licks me in the face?! She could take my eye out! I especially fear for my niece, who's only four months old. The beast of a pit bull lays next to her all the time, licking the leftover lunch from her hands, and it scares me. I've heard the stories! I know pit bulls can suck the breath from a child!

    Yes... Dangerous monsters indeed.
     
  5. Aire
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    Aire Banned Sock-Puppet

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    ... Always thought that was cats you had to fear.
     
  6. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yeah, I remembered that after I posted but hoped no one would notice. :rofl:
     
  7. Bookster
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    Bookster Banned

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    I want to agree with this, but I've never seen a media story about a toddler being savaged by a collie. Such stories always involve a pit bull or pit bull mix, and the dog's owners always go on and on about how much the pooch liked children. I think it's something in the breed. It is true, though, that nothing says 'white trash' like a pit bull on a chain in the yard.
     
  8. Aire
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    Aire Banned Sock-Puppet

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    Then you're either not looking in the right places or ignoring such stories.

    Thing is I know of a toddler in one of the European countries - Denmark or Norway, can't remember in that area - who had his legs literally ripped off by the family border collie just a few years ago. Another youth will be scarred for life due to the family Lab. That's just off the top of my head mind you. There's numerous stories of kids getting their faces badly scarred by German Shepherds & Shetland Sheepdogs & collie types - which are far more nippy breeds than most would like to acknowledge.

    To say it is just one dog breed is rather naïve. Dogs are predators regardless of how cuddly they may seem & how much they love licking your face. Without proper training and supervision even a tiny little ankle biter of a terrier can seriously harm a child. Look up Sutherland - baby attack - this year. A small dog pretty much went "bonkers" on a very young child and ended up killing the kid.


    Years ago out of all the fatality dog attacks pit bulls are actually quite low. In fact as of the 1990s, pit bulls rarely scored in the fatality attack lists - Rotties were the problem back then. Nowadays those numbers have jumped through the roof for that exact reason "white trash" [or any trash regardless of skin color].
     
  9. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    This point needs a little work. There's a segment of the population that would not be able to treat a machine gun responsibly even though the majority of the population -- if they wanted to -- could own a machine gun and not engage in crime or negligence.
     
  10. Woof
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    Woof Contributing Member

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    My experience is with collies, and mine are well trained and loved and would never intentionally hurt anyone. I do my best to train them to live in a human world harmoniously. However, should the worst happen and they frighten and e.g. nip someone then the damage will likely be far less severe than if that happened with a pit bull or staffie, or any dog with big jaws that are designed and bred to tear and rip flesh easily. That has nothing to do with the dog's intent and it means, to some degree, that they will always be more dangerous and/or instances/accidents are more likely to escalate to a reportable level fast. I do think they have a right to live and be loved though, and they can be awesome pets, but if anything they need more loving and vigilant owners than normal, capable of training and working them accordingly... not any old shit who wants protection at the expense of the dog's life. It's the same if you're human though: those with above-average strength or size will always be on a back foot in terms of culpability and bear the brunt of responsibility for it. Where abuse and maltreatment is involved though, it almost doesn't matter what breed the dog is, it will act in fear. Mistreated collies can be terrible: my personal theory is it's because they're so sharp and can interpret rules as well as recall them, so they remember everything that's ever been done to them and play it over and over trying to understand it like a serially abused person might.
     
  11. Aire
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    Aire Banned Sock-Puppet

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    You know I had to read that a couple of things to figure if you're being this obtuse on purpose - seeing as the pit bull is banned in an ever growing regions around the world [that means you'd be fined, even jailed and the dog destroyed] or you really have that little clue of what I am talking about.

    As it is, if you didn't grasp what I said with the full quote any dog is potentially dangerous not just pit bulls. However, no dog breed has been as abused by thugs, losers, junkies - the "scum" of society - as the pit bull has been and because of these moral-less dog breeders the breed has suffered.

    Let me enlighten you.

    There are bloodlines of pit bulls bred to be so aggressive that the only way to actually breed them is to put the female in a specialized restraining harness so she can't turn around and tear a chunk out of the male. There are breeders of pit bulls who don't give two sh*ts if the parents are so bloody "blood thirsty" that they're crazy, the more aggressive the dogs the "better" the pups and the more money such losers make selling the offspring to fellow losers.

    One of the most infamous fighting / working pit bull bloodlines is Colby. John P Colby was a coward, a bully and a bastard if you bother researching the history behind him. One of his dogs attacked and brutalized his nephew, not only did he petition to keep the dog alive he actually used it in his breeding program. Sounds like the start of a "fantastic" breeding program doesn't it.

    All that's not even scratching the surface of the pit bull breed.
     
  12. Aire
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    Aire Banned Sock-Puppet

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    The irony is that the original version of the pit bull, before it became so abused as a breed, was it was originally a farm dog.
     
  13. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    Have you really told me how pit bulls are different from machine guns? Why are they so popular among the underclass, music videos? No, you've told me information that strengthens my position, that the potential for breeding wild animals exists and is taking place. Get to the point of how to balance this with responsible owners/breeders.
     
  14. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Here's the thing:

    Dog/Canines are carnivorous beasts. Their cousins are the wolves and coyotes. It took hundreds of thousands of years to fully domesticate dogs to coexist peacefully with humans. However, we are lying to ourselves if we think they (a) still don't have some of their primal instincts and (b) we humans can't bring that back out with breeding and training. You can train a pit bull to be so sweet, so docile, that it will treat a tiny human infant like it's own pup. You can also train a poodle to be so vicious that it will rip your ankles to shreds if allowed.

    Basically, it's the fault of humans for bringing those old instincts back out in the pit bulls that act aggressive. How is it their fault? They're dogs, they've literally no conception of right and wrong as we understand it. All they know is what their instincts tell them and what their masters/pack leaders want of them. If you harness their old, primal instincts and teach them to be aggressive, then that's what they're going to do!

    Look, I love animals. Probably more than humans (my own race. Y'know, the human race.) I've two dogs and a cat. I love them to death, but I'd be deluding myself if I think they're humans just like me. They're not. Their brains work on a different frequency than human brains. They rely more on instincts, experience and what their pack leader desires.
     
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  15. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    :stop:

    Important to note that there is no point in addressing the OP (Aire) any further in this thread because the member has been banned for a being a sock-puppet of ADreamer. Both members are no longer a part of the community.

    Please feel free to continue the conversation addressing the comments of the the active members herein.

    Thank you,
    Wrey
     
  16. Shattered Shields
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    Shattered Shields Gratsa!

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    This is sort've a yes and no question. It really depends on how naturally aggressive the dog is, or if someone has trained it to be mean and ferocious. If it was manipulated to be mean (through breeding or otherwise) then it is the fault of the human, if it is naturally aggressive, then it is the fault of the dog.

    But we ought to remember, we are talking about an animal here, so let's not put too many moral responsibilities on them. They are products of nature.
     
  17. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

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    Yes, most of the time, the humans who were supposed to raise it were at fault. But it is true that some dog breeds are more aggressive than other dog breeds. Labs, golden retrievers, German retrievers? They're chosen as guide dogs because 1) they're intelligent 2) they're loyal dogs who won't turn on you. Obviously, you won't need an intelligent dog, but some dog breeds do have the capacity to be more violent than other breeds. Again, though, raising the dog can change this.
     
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