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  1. Ember
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    Ember New Member

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    please help save home education!!!!!

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Ember, Jun 14, 2009.

    I do not know whether or not you are aware of the situation with graham Badman trying to turn home education into a controlled schooling system http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8093796.stm but anyway, I intend this message to be a warning to those who do not know and a plea to those of the public, please anything we can pull into this battle now is the time, I am currently writing a word doc explaining home ed life with my friends, this I intend to post to the internet but it will not be enough, I implore you help people of the public to understand about home education.
    first they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew, then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist, then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist, then they came for me, and by then there was no-one left to speak out for me. my final warning, do whatever you can, do not just sit back and watch as our freedom is taken like so many before us, fight for the rights we were so clearly meant to have
     
  2. Gallowglass
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    Gallowglass Contributing Member Contributor

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    England's education system (and I assume this includes Wales, as well) has never been the most modern in the UK. It's not even properly organised yet, with some exams being scrapped, replaced, etc. and a lack of national GCSEs besides a rather pathetic collection that reflect the 'one size fits everyone' strategy.
     
  3. Rei
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    Rei Contributing Member Contributor

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    There are certain regulations in Canada and the US regarding home-schooling. It really is for the benefit of the kids. If there was no way to make sure that the parents were doing their jobs, and giving them certain guidelines as well as supporting them, kids might not be able to get the minimum education needed so that they can actually get a job. Of course there shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all method, but there are lots of things that people need to know in order to get into university or whatever, and not all parents are going to know this stuff.

    I don't know what you mean by "going after the Jews" but as for education in the private religious schools, Ontario religious schools have very successfully integrated the province's educational guidelines with religious education.
     
  4. Acglaphotis
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    Acglaphotis Contributing Member

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    OP is referencing an old WWII poem:

    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.


    Then they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.



    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not protest;
    I was not a trade unionist.



    Then they came for the Jews,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a Jew.



    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out for me.

    The sad part is that it's a true story :/.
     
  5. Paki-Writing
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    Paki-Writing Member

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    Criminal Public School System

    I never actually liked the public school systems, and when I started to read John T. Gatto, my hate for the system was cemented. US public schools produce students who are unable to read books cover-to-cover. If they can't even get students to have basic reading and writing skills, who are they to regulate homeschoolers?

    It's amazing that people can see homeschoolers consistently win in academic competitions, and consistently see public school children not have basic english and math skills, and yet feel the public schools, with all their wisdom, need to regulate home school education.

    What if a parent believes that their seven-year-old child should only have classes building their English and math skills, but the failed school system feels the child needs social studies and many other classes. The parent has no right to disagree? The parent can't say, "I want my child to be first strong in some basic skills before taking other subjects. I want my child to have amble play time at seven also." It's the fail school system the dictates what you can do.

    It's sad to see how a successful system is being taken over by a failed system, preventing parents from being able to give their kids a good education. It's nothing but criminal.
     
  6. Rei
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    Rei Contributing Member Contributor

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    My only point was that not all parents may have the ability and resources, or know what they need to provide for their children. If a parent is lacking in some of these areas and does not realize it, there should be guidelines for them to follow. The guidelines I know of are pretty broad. The only strict one I know of it about how many hours per day should be devoted to schoolwork. It was not a criticism of homeschooling.

    Considering how many children do excel in the public schools, I don't believe it is a failed system, just not one that works for everyone. In Ontario, they do their best to take into account a wide variety of needs, train as many teachers as they can on exceptionalities, and have programs for students who are signficantly above or below the grade level their age would put them in.

    Keep in mind that I did say I did say there shouldn't be a "one-size-fits-all" method. There is no need to be defensive.
     
  7. arron89
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    arron89 Banned

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    Rounded education is essential. You cannot exclude social studies, foreign languages, history, etc for the sake of teaching basic reading and math. The school systems can only do so much with the limited time and resources they have available to them, and it falls largely to the parents (as it should) to do the necessary groundwork to allow their child to make the most of the school system. Children should be able to read and write competently enough by the time they enter the school system at 5/6 or they will be playing catch up for the rest of their school lives. Outside the classroom, parents should be encouraging their children to read, teaching them simple mathematics, encouraging interest in social sciences and history, and encouraging the acquisition of language. This does not happen. It is not fair to blame the school system, which is hugely underfunded and lacking necessary resources for the inadequacy of the education provided by many parents.

    Furthermore, the school environment offers an opportunity for social development which is difficult to simulate in any other situation. Mutual cooperation, team work, conflict resolution, social problem solving, all of these are skills that are constantly being developed in the school environment, and are severely limited by relatively more isolated home schooling.

    As for this: "US public schools produce students who are unable to read books cover-to-cover", it should fall to the parents to instill basic skills such as reading. The school can do its best, but if a child is only being made to read for an hour or so a day at school and completely unsupported at home, the system is obviously not going to work. Resigning parental responsability and giving your child's education totally over to the public system is the recipe for the disasters quoted by anti-school rhetoric today. Yes the system is flawed, but it does its best in the face of extremely unsupportive home situations.
     
  8. zaphod
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    What I think is as these kids move on to higher education if they choose then are taxpayer subsidized public universities now dealing with them? Likewise what if the homeschooling parents are on welfare? I think there should be a public interest here. I am sure most home-schooling situations are great ones where kids are being taught well. But I would imagine good homeschoolers aren't in conflict with any policies or standardizations passed by the government anyways.

    I also won't support catering to all the kooky evangelical religious freaks out there.And the case of teenagers who are allowed self-study by their parents and either blow it off or cheat, and grow up losers.
     
  9. Paki-Writing
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    Paki-Writing Member

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    failed school system

    I don't know how school systems outside the US work, but as far as my country is concerned, it is a failed system. I excel in math and science, but that's not because of my public school education, it's in spite of it. Many of my friends do well because of home support and money spent on things like Kaplan.

    The number of students graduating and being functionally illiterate is high. Iraq, before Bush (the father) supported Saddam Hussain and his murders, had a might higher rate of functional literacy then the US. Considering how educated the average highschool graduate is, then yes, the public school system is a failure.

    Public Schools should be inspected by homeschoolers, not the other way around.
     
  10. Rei
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    Rei Contributing Member Contributor

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    Both need to be checked to make sure they are providing what children need. And to be perfectly blunt, if the main reason you believe public school is bad is you and your friends, you have lost all credibility with me. Yes, maybe there is a high rate of illiteracy in the US, but show me evidence that it is souly the fault of the public school system and has nothing to do with a lack of support outside the schools. How many parents actually help kids with their homework, encourage them to read, take them to the library? Many people on this site have even commented on how little people in their community value reading.

    I know six-year-old kids who can't even read their own name, and it's not strictly a failing of the public schools. It's because parents don't read to their children or even bother teaching them their letters or to count.
     
  11. Paki-Writing
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    A seven-year-old doesn't need to learn "social studies, foreign languages, history, etc." They can be taught that at 13. Even if you want to disagree, fine. But to shove that down a parent's throat under threat of law, you need some serious proof that only teaching math and English skills to a seven-year-old is detrimental. If you can't, stay out of their home.

    It has happened. A friend of mine moved out of a state because he didn't agree with the state's teaching philosophy for his kid.

    It's utterly amazing how much better, on average, home schooled children are, not only academically, but also socially then public school children. It's also amazing that public school officials don't come under the same scrutiny as home schooling parents.
     
  12. Paki-Writing
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    If you're serious about this, PM me, and I'll give you a reading list. We can talk about what's in the books.
     
  13. Rei
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    Rei Contributing Member Contributor

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    I'm not going to bother discussing this with you because of how you responded to my first post. All I said at first was that not all parents who want to homeschool their kids will always know what their kids need and it's to their benefit to have guidelines, and somehow you turned that into a rant against public schools and seemed to think I was saying that homeschooling is bad. To be honest, people like you are part of the problem with the public school system in America. You're the ones who see the weaknesses, and can find solutions, but instead, you just slap a label of failure on it and leave it to crumble.
     
  14. Paki-Writing
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    I'm sorry. This wasn't meant as an attack on you. I just REALLY hate the public school system. I really really hate it.

    I know you're not saying the homeschooling is bad. However, the state can act tyrannical. I've had a friend that's left his home state because of it.

    I find it depressing, that if I ever have kids, I may not be able to teach them well. I don't want the state to tell me how to educate my kids, unless they have well-substantiated evidence that my way will hurt my kids. I don't think that's too much to ask for. I mean, they're my kids. As a parent, shouldn't I have the main say as to how I want my kids educated? What if I disagree with the guidelines, do I have to either move or have social services take my kids away from me?
     
  15. hiddennovelist
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    hiddennovelist Contributing Member Contributor

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    So do many parents who homeschool their children.

    First of all, there may be homeschooled students who excel in academic competitions, but there are also public-educated schools who do the same. You can find kids who excel in any type of educational system. That doesn't necessarily mean that one system is superior to another. Second, are you saying that public schools are the ones that regulate homeschool? Because that is not the case everywhere, and if you're generalizing your entire argument to one specific area, that's not a very credible argument.

    Personally, I am grateful for the fact that I got a well-rounded education, rather than just focusing on one or two subjects. And I had ample time to play when I was seven, also...

    How about we keep this a polite, civil discussion instead of being rude to other posters?

    Five year olds aren't reading books? Which five year olds? Because I used to work with kids who were younger than that and knew how to read. And as for the preschool thing, where are you getting your information?

    Again, where are you getting your information? Is it personal experience, or have you read about studies that yielded those results?
     
  16. arron89
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    arron89 Banned

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    I learnt to read and write before I started school, as did all my siblings, my parents, the majority of my friends. All it takes is parents doing their jobs as primary educators rather than trusting that the school will do it. And I'm not saying you don't need maths and english first and foremost, but if you don't have the reasoning and language skills by 7 or 8 to at least begin grasping the basics of the social sciences or foreign languages, then you may be falling behind.

    As for outstanding kids, in all the schools I've been to there have been programs designed to push them further, but again, its up to the parents and students themselves (often) to gain the attention of people who can provide these opportunities. In over-full classes, kids do slip through the cracks, but again, its as simple as parents getting involved in their children's education to remedy this situation.

    Saying public education "fails" is a gross and misleading falsification based on fear-mongering and unfair statistics. And I don't care what statistics you cacn quote, home-schooled children are not as socially equipped as their public school peers. As someone who has met, befriended and studied alongside home-schooled kids, you can most definitely tell that they have not had the same degree of social experience as public schooled kids, rarely to the extent that they are awkward, simply that they are less comfortable in certain situations.
     
  17. Paki-Writing
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    I've read this in books, and it's even been acknowledge in debates against proponents of public school education. The only thing left to debate was if public school children are socially adjusted better then homeschooled children. I think it was Susan Wise Bauer that showed that homeschooled children even excel in that area.

    Here is a little list:

    Greene, S. (1985) Home study in Alaska: A profile of K-12 students enrolled in the Alaska Centralized Correspondence Study. Resources in Education. (ERIC document Reproduction Service No. ED 255 494)

    Rakestraw, J. (1987) An Analysis of Home Schooling for Elementary School-age Children in Alabama. Doctoral Dissertation, University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL.

    Ray, B.D. & Wartes, J. (1991) Academic Task and Socializing. In J. Van Galen and M.A Pittman (Eds.) Home Schooling: Political, Historical, and Pedagogical Perspectives. Norwood, NJ: Ablex.

    Richman, Howard. (1988) Homeschoolers Score Higher - A Replicable Result. (available from Pennsylvania Homeschoolers, RD 2, Box 117, Kittanning PA 16201)

    Wartes, J. (1990). The Relationship of Selected Input Variables to Academic Achievement Among Washington's Homeschoolers, [16109 NE 169th Place,] Woodinville, WA: Washington Homeschool Research Project.
     
  18. hiddennovelist
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    hiddennovelist Contributing Member Contributor

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    Thank you. I like looking at sources. :)

    And I'm sorry if it seemed I was arguing against homeschool/for public school. Honestly, I think there is bad and good in both of them. I think there is a lot that we could improve if instead of picking out the bad in one institution vs another, different methods of education combined to find and utilize the best in all of them.
     
  19. Paki-Writing
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    I don't mean to attack you, I don't. But our public school system is really messed up. I actually went to talk to a person in our universities education department. She supervises the tests given out to certifies teachers. I asked her why they don't look at the systems they use in Asia. She replied, "They're more concentrated on memorization, while the western system is based on understanding." I was flabbergasted.

    According to one of my teachers (who first taught overseas), it's the American system that's not based on understanding. The books are a mile wide, but an inch deep.

    Anyway, I digress. I'd really recommend you read books by John T. Gatto. In fact, here is an amazon link to a list of books: http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1245028847/ref=a9_sc_1?ie=UTF8&search-alias=aps&field-keywords=john%20gatto

    You can see what readers say about his books.
     
  20. hiddennovelist
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    hiddennovelist Contributing Member Contributor

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    My only issue with books like that about education, studies that have shown what works and what doesn't, etc, is that if you're looking for evidence that shows something works or doesn't work, you're going to find it. I started my master's in education, and I've read so many articles on studies that contradict each other, it's ridiculous. Educational studies are conducted by humans, and so regardless of how hard a person tries, their studies are going to have some bias, and the results are also going to depend on who is participating in the study, as well as who is conducting it.

    That being said, I agree that the public school system in the US needs some fixing. However, I also think that homeschooling could use some adjustments.
     
  21. Azhigher
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    Azhigher Senior Member

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    Public school isn't that bad. It teaches a basic curriculum and provides a good base for kids to build off of. Is it the end all of education? Nope. But hey, it's free right?

    Homeschooling your kids... who has the time for that?

    And lets be honest... how socialized are homeschooled kids REALLY going to be eh?
     
  22. hiddennovelist
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    hiddennovelist Contributing Member Contributor

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    My big issue with public school is that standardized tests and state tests like AIMS in Arizona have become such a big deal that teachers are being pushed to teach more based on what's going to be on the test than what kids really should be learning. That doesn't mean everything about public schools is terrible, though. I think a lot of what you're going to get from school, whether it's a public school, private school, charter school, homeschool, etc, depends on your teachers. If you have a good teacher who engages students and really gets them interested in learning, those students are going to learn, regardless of what setting they are learning in.

    That's what really concerns me about homeschooling. I know this doesn't speak for all homeschooled children, but I have known a lot of homeschooled kids, and most of them were awkward and unsure in social settings. I'm not saying that's a direct result of their being homeschooled, but I think it plays a part in it. Kids who are around kids during the day vs. kids who stay at home with their parents during the day...who is going to be more socialized? It's difficult to learn how to interact in a public setting when you're not in a public setting.
     
  23. Azhigher
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    Azhigher Senior Member

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    You know what would be tragic, if kids were homeschooled up to high school then dropped into the fray.

    I mean, they would get socialized eventually...

    And by socialized, I mean picked on and ridiculed.
     
  24. hiddennovelist
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    That reminds me of the High School Musical skit on SNL where Zach Efron comes back to tell the other students that outside of their high school, no one spontaneously bursts into song.
     
  25. Rei
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    Rei Contributing Member Contributor

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    Standardized tests are dumb. In Ontario, we have some really stupid ones, and it's gotten to the point where teachers behave as if the only reason the kids should know certain things is because they are on the test.

    Five-year-olds not reading? Go to any Montessori school and see how many five-year-olds can read independently, even without focusing their whole day on reading and math. Babies love books, too.

    As for not benefiting from a well-rounded education? That makes no sense at all. Montessori is very well rounded. I've seen just how well they do. Besides, while learning about these other subjects, you're still reading, and therefore improving literacy. French immersion schools do consistently do better with language overall, and because of how we aquire language, 13 is actually not the best age to start learning second languages. It's better to start younger. Developments in the brain that start at 15 or 16 make that a good time to start learning new languages, though.
     
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