Political Threads and Forum Behavior

First of all, IronPalm brought up the closed threads, not me. I merely offered my opinion that insults and personal attacks go beyond simple disagreement.

Secondly, I never stated I was in any position of authority.

Finally, I'm not arguing with anyone. If you wish to attack me on some personal level you are free to PM me. So far this thread has been an excellent discussion on the possibility of a new forum, and how we can all learn how to disagree properly.

If you would rather turn this into some kind of petty playground-style squabble, then frankly I'm not interested.

But I respect your opinion.

Cheers.

 

I feel a misconception has been allowed to coagulate on this thread. This thread was at first little more than a request to play nice on the forum. The tone of many at the time recent threads had been particularly nasty and aggressive. We mods were getting a lot of complaints about it, and to be honest we were getting sick of it too ourselves. This discussion, that was almost inevitable on reflection, has at some points got nasty (I have been the cause of such a turning myself when I called a member out for being rather liberal with the truth) and has even been derailed too. In essence this thread became an example of exactly why the original post was felt needed in the first place.

 

While I agree with you, and I have been guilty of a few derailments myself, I think it's also a testament to our respect that we were all able to apologize and admit our mistakes. There was, in my opinion a collective mea culpa that brought us all closer together and strengthened our resolve to be more respectful of others.

I know many members who actively disagree in certain debates still talk to each other through PM's and have a respect for each other. For example, Ginger and I disagree on most things, yet I know I can PM Ginger and we can have a respectful, friendly conversation beyonf the walls of certain threads. Same with Lemex and minstrel and others.

I know I'm not perfect and I've eaten my share of crow, but in the end we're all people and we should all strive to respect the person, even if we disagree on their beliefs.

...but that's just my opinion.

 

Lem,

All I can say is that I feel for you, man. Truly, I do. I was a mod and I know it's a thankless job. It's nothing but complaints.

Here's the deal that no one is willing to say because certain members use artifice to flip the script and spin the "narrative" (how I detest that word). This forum is going through a cultural revolution. It's not a creative place anymore. Just not. The culture has changed completely. I would hesitate to call it a writing forum at this point because the new mindset has acted like a fender bender on a major highway creating a traffic jam that stretches from one city to the next. Remember that thread I posted about Mythologizing? I used to post "silly question" threads like that all the time BITD, and so did many other members, and the conversations would be great and it would be like a real brainstorming session with people giving ideas that were expanded and grown instead of reduced and discarded. That's creativity to me. To me. And discussions like that were profuse and varied. Maybe all these reductionist conversations are creative for other people and its their turn to have that kind of creativity for them. That's cool. Changing of the guard and all that. I get it, but again, the thing no one wants to respond to, the thing that I say over and over again and it's like I'm speaking Old Church Slavonic is that I can't help but notice that this new mindset in the forum has come with a near halt to conversations in other parts of the forum. The top section and the bottom section of the forum (the parts actually about writing and for written pieces) used to flow like water in a cold mountain river. Not any more. I mention it, eyes glaze over and the tops of shoes suddenly become very interesting to everyone. The only thing happening in the forum right now is people marking their corners and slippery bullies like JJ amassing their cronies. JJ, you are bully. You say respect, but you only mean respect for you, not for everyone else. You goad and then cry foul. It's the truth. Everyone here knows it but is afraid to tangle with you or speak out for fear of being infracted or banned. If I get infracted for this, I will consider it small price for speaking what others will only whisper.

 

[MENTION=3885]Wreybies[/MENTION] - I'm not sure exactly how I offended you but I'm sorry. I was bullied all throughout school and would never do that to another person. Whatever you think I am, I assure you I'm not. I may be outspoken, prideful and yes, sometimes a little arrogant, but I love to write and I consider everyone here my friend, including you.

I would leave the forum if I honestly felt that people didn't want me here.

 

What I find disheartening about this whole site is that I have more members on "ignore" here than I do the other three sites I'm on. It's not even a contest - 1 person on ignore among the entire three sites together. I keep coming back to see if there's a writing question/discussion, but even those are tending more and more toward nastiness.

 

I've said as much already, JJ. You have a way of goading others into bad behavior and then pointing the finger. You play on the legal concept that the action was not yours, though the provocation certainly was. I am not offended at anyone, JJ. Please don't bring a word into play in order to co-opt its meaning to your attempted martyrdom. This forum was once at the top of any search. It no longer is. This forum was once a vast playground of creativity, despite the troubles inherent to a very large community, and it no longer is. This entire debate about debates is like trying to find a way to make everyone happy with a cigarette machine in the doctor's office. As to your misappropriated authority... please, JJ, at least have the honesty to own the manner in which you speak. Have the honesty to own the fact that you speak to members as if you are in charge and this is your discussion. At least have that honesty.

I'm not offended, JJ. I wasn't even offended when you stopped responding to my posts directed at you, but instead indirectly responded by way of responding to others. Even that brush-off and discounting did not offend me.

If you were genuinely bullied as a kid, then seriously, and all other bullshit aside, I feel and understand that. I was the skinny little gay Puerto Rican kid with the unpronounceable name growing up in 1970's Omaha, Nebraska. I know what being bullied is. I'm not going to backpedal here. If that is true, then, man, you need to check yourself. Most bullies were bullied. It's a cycle.

 

[MENTION=3885]Wreybies[/MENTION] - I'm still not sure where all this animosity is coming from but it appears you're pretty upset about something. I am sorry if I didn't specifically respond to one of your posts, I do try to answer everyone as best as I can.

However, I'm afraid this thread has turned into you and I having what appears to be a personal conversation. I really don't want this thread to be shut down so do you think we could just agree to disagree? I don't agree with your opinions, but I respect you and would be happy to continue this discussion in PM's.

Would that be alright?

 

Site politics hurt my head.

The issues of this site can't be that bad.

I mean this site seems rather docile compared to other places. Now of course the place has problems but at least when I get a reply from person its either friendly or will make me think even if written in a less then happy way. I've never been outright attacked on this site. So in my book it gets points.

Of course maybe I just miss a lot of stuff that goes on. I tend to be on the RPG section.

 

That would actually be fine with me, JJ.

 

Our forum is very tame comparitively. We are a samller forum and I am a member of a HUGE writing forum, ten times as big as this one and they have a very active Politics & Current Events forum. It is heavily moderated and has I think seven stickies. Are there disagreements? Of course. We are humans after all. But the moderators do their job and everyone is aware of the expectations.

No straw men, no insults, no derogatory titles (rethuglican, libtard, fundie, commie, bible-thumper) and they have the expectation that members will assume the good intentions of others and recieve the same in return. We should bring light to a discussion, not just heat.

I know that I am guilty of some of these myself at times, but there's always room for people to grow and become better and to learn from their mistakes.

 

I don't put people on ignore, but I do find I have to ignore certain people. And that saddens me as well. The site was not like that before.

 

In my opinion, it's high time for a moderator or someone with administrative powers to make a decision.

1. Leave the situation as is (few people seem to be happy with that).
2. Make a politics subforum (seems to be the most supported idea, as it leaves the possibility for discussion but simply puts it out of the way of writing which is what this site was, is and should be about.
3. Revert to the old policy and be (much) less lenient about political/reglious topics.

It's really that simple. Someone with the power to commit to any of these changes should do so. This discussion is dragging on and on without anything being decided. I call for action.

 

I'm sure the moderators can take care of any troublemakers. As long as members can refrain from insults and personal attacks, I see no reason why we can't continue to have a discussion.

Sometimes people fear open discussions like disagreements are somehow bad or wrong. This couldn't be farther from the truth. There will always be disagreements, but as long as we are kind and respectful, everything will be smooth and enjoyable for everyone.

 

Which would have been completely fine if that was indeed the case. However, at no point does "Ender's Game" mention either gay marriage or homosexuality.

Yes, how dare a peon like myself express his honest views in a topic meant for feedback!

If I'm not a moderator or "extraordinary member", I should just shut up according to jazzabel, no matter how much the posts in question violate site rules, are off-topic, and discourage people from posting in the Lounge.

Please, enlighten me where I have ever injected politics into a non-political thread like the two examples I cited above. Care to back up your baseless accusations?

No, it's not. But it is very much within my rights to state my views, "publicly" or not.

Awesome; you wrote an entire post bitching about perceived bitching!

Anyways, sorry to disillusion you, but my last post had nothing to do with you personally. (Notice how I didn't mention anyone by name, but you made it about yourself in this response?) Rather, it was about forum rules being broken with non-political topics being derailed by political talk. According to your logic, if you committed murder and someone complained to the police, would it just be "bitching" and a personality conflict?

No, it's breaking rules.

 

Darn, and I find it to be such a useful word for pointing out how different points of view frame statements covertly.



Well perhaps we should just get to this room elephant:

Tell me, do you think saying your morals and your god beliefs lead you to find certain common and biologically normal behaviors are inherently evil sins should not be taken by anyone as an insult?

It's different if I disagree with someone's politics or conclusions than it is to say a person is immoral, don't you think?

 

Regardless, the discussion is hard to avoid given the current Internet discussion re Card's views and the Ender's Game movie is in full swing:

'Ender's Game' studio Lionsgate disavows Orson Scott Card's views

'ENDER'S GAME': HOW AUTHOR ORSON SCOTT CARD'S ANTI-GAY VIEWS COULD AFFECT ITS SUCCESS

'Ender's Game' movie gets an unwanted plot twist
The sci-fi film due out this fall is caught in a furor over the anti-gay views of the original book's author.


How can Card's views not be part of the discussion given the above?

 

I won't have a debate on my religious beliefs regarding homosexuality in this thread. I respect everyone equally and I have made clear distinctions between people and actions.

I would be happy to discuss this with you elsewhere or through PM's, but it would be against the rules to have it here.

 

I didn't ask you to debate or defend your beliefs. I asked you specifically if you thought stating those beliefs was a contradiction to your claim you haven't insulted anyone.

 

So just because certain mainstream media is obsessed with gay marriage, shamelessly trolling for page views, and injecting it into completely unrelated topics (like "Ender's Game", which never mentions anything related to that), this forum needs to follow their example?

I would hope we're better than that. Otherwise, maybe we need to create a new subforum for discussing the Kardashians?

 

[MENTION=53143]GingerCoffee[/MENTION] - Your statement regarding my beliefs was incorrect, and would require me to correct you, which I will not do here.

Once again, I respect everyone equally as people, even if I disagree with their beliefs.

Frankly, I find your statements disconcerting as it appears you are deliberately trying to provoke me into an altercation.

I respectfully decline.

You are, however, more than welcome to PM me, as you have done in the past.

 

If the discussion was about reality TV, I would think the unrelated discussion of the new royal baby would come up being related and a current event.


I really don't have a horse in your race. I'm just saying there were current events regarding the book, the movie and the author that were legitimately part of the discussion. I can understand someone stating they see no evidence in the book. But I don't feel bringing up the issue was as off topic as you feel it was.

 

It's admittedly not as bad as the first example I cited in my post (this topic being derailed by this post), but still unnecessary and off-topic.

Your argument would work if the topic was called "Orson Scott Card", not "Ender's Game". Actually, this whole discussion reminds me of this blog piece by a bestselling writer;

Nazism and the New York Post

When you discuss a work of fiction, you really have to separate the writer from the novel, or else "Crime and Punishment" becomes a discussion solely about anti-Semitism (although there is actually a bit of that in the novel, unlike gay marriage and "Ender's Game"), or "The Great Gatsby" becomes a discussion solely about alcoholism.

 

[MENTION=54840]IronPalm[/MENTION]: Your opinion is legitimate, but your outrage that others didn't see it your way, ... not so much.

 

"Outrage"? Where? By the way, nice shift from the content of what I wrote to your perception of my tone. Typical tactic of changing the argument when you feel your points have been debunked.

Also, is my "outrage" any more or less than your outrage at JJ Maxx for having the insolence to be a Christian and believing in the teachings of his religion? Just curious.