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  1. Raven
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    Raven Banned

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    Politics and other general idiocy...

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Raven, Nov 23, 2006.

    Someone claimed that (under Bush) unemployment was down from Clinton's time...
    All I can say to that is... "complete and utter bull crap"
    Ever since Bush took office, my family has been on one income.
    I know more people out of work NOW that I have ever seen.

    Clinton may have been personally repugnant, but he was an effective and intelligent leader for the country...
    Bush, whatever else can be said about him, is NOT particularly intelligent and he has not done ANYTHING effective for THIS country since taking office.

    Let's see what Bush's regime has done for the country...

    (as noted above, unemployment SUCKS)

    we have lost more US soldiers in the "war" in Iraq than in any event since Vietnam...
    whether the war is legal or not is irrelevant at this point, of course... we're over there.
    The point is, however, (legal or not) we should not be... it's not our soldiers' job to be the world police....


    We're a democratic country. When men and women join the military, they give up the right, except in small ways, to complain about America's wars. The concept is that they defend us, and in return we exercise good judgment about what risks we send them into. This is sabotaged when opposing sending our troops into a pointless conflict becomes "disloyalty." We owe it to our fighting men and women to be sensible and make the decisions they cannot. When we abrogate that responsibility in the name of "patriotism" we are not being Citizens. I can't say for certain what we should do in Iraq, but I can say it needs to be the result of an informed and public debate, not the meanderings of an administration that has systematically bankrupted its best talent by punishing any opinion that did not reflect the pre-existing prejudices of its ideologues.


    what else... hmmm...
    personal liberty is at an all time low, not seen since the McCarthy era.
    All that has to be done to incarcerate someone and remove their constitutional rights is to SUGGEST that they might be involved in terrorism. No proof is needed. No warrants required by Bush's lackeys for wiretaps, etc.
    All-in-all a disgusting situation.


    Overall, I am distinctly UNimpressed with the republican-run country.
    Now, the Democrats have a tie with the Republicans, and 2 (mostly democratic) Independents to swing the votes...
    So... we'll see whether it's Business As Usual or if some much needed changes can be made in theTONE of the legislature and have been made in the POPULATION of the legislature.

    Remember: The US is NOT actually a democracy; we are a democratic republic. Democracy assumes that each and every citizen has a vote on issues. We don't. In order to have a vote, you first have to spend huge amounts of money and be elected... which then entitles you to do whatever you want as the "representative" of the people. Seriously, I would like to see a single congressman, democrat or republican who has ever been out of a job, looking for a way to make ends meet... The very nature of the system, unfrontuately, and the federal government has effectively removed the citizens' constitutionally guaranteed capability to remove said government from power.
     
  2. Frost
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    Frost Contributing Member

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    Im from Australia, so I can't really say too much, but that seems like a few fairly valid points. Only thing is, can you provide some linkage to an official source to prove that unemployment is up? Just out of interest.

    Look at the empires of old. Babylon, Rome, the Aztecs, the Spanish, all had empires from between 100-600 years. Look at modern empires, the Russian/roman empire thing they had going, Hitler - about 10 years a piece. Is the US of A another great empire that will fall quickly?
     
  3. mammamaia
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    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    one can only hope!...but 'quickly' is relative, since it's been alive and kicking for well over 200 years already... can't be too quickly for me, at this point...
     
  4. Frost
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    Frost Contributing Member

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    But its only been in the last few years(since Bush and co) that America has kicked on and taken over new countries to become a true empire.
     
  5. newguy
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    newguy Contributing Member

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    I know not of america's curse. What I do know...

    it's possible that america will fall, but not now, not while it still holds much influence in the world. not only in politics, but commercially and economically, it is still a super power. not all leaders in their government are ignoramus bent on a grudge war that their fathers began and never ended.eventually, someone will get sick of their leader and an uproar may occur.
     
  6. Sapphire
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    Sapphire Senior Member

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    Okay, this post will probably be very very very long because I am extremely liberal and the conservative party that Bush is leading pisses me off to no end. And I will tell you why in the following paragraphs:

    For one thing, I personally do not think that Bush is fully running this country. He's a puppet on a string, puppeteered by Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and Paul Wolfowitz or however the hell you spell his name. Bush is too damn stupid to know how to give a speech. At least Clinton was interesting to listen to. Bush says the same damn things over and over again, and we GET IT ALREADY! We're in Iraq for bullshit reasons that we all know, so he needs to stop giving these excuses which only makes matters worse for him.

    Another thing about the war, the Bush administration keeps telling us that we are over there for so many different reasons, but the most laughable and stupid thing he's ever said that we are over there for is because he wants to lower the prices we have for gas. My solution to that is: BUILD SOME FRIGGIN' ETHANOL PLANTS! If not that, since that drains our water supply, why not just go back to friggin' horses and buggies like the Amish?

    And for the United States falling, I hope it happens soon because I'm getting really sick of living here. America is starting to go the course that the Romans did. I mean, look what happened for that empire to fall. It was economic problems due to wars between generals for the throne, the military was another thing because they kept stripping the middle class of its rights and jobs, and it caused it to disappear. Rome's military was made up of mostly middle class, and if you take that away, you don't have an army, and the third, and probably the biggest reason why Rome fell, was because you had stupid, idiotic leaders. I mean, sure, you had Augustus, Constantine, Hadrian, Vlavian, and many other great emperors, but not only that, you also had corrupted emperors such as Nero, who burnt down most of uptown Rome to get room for his pleasure palace, and Caligula who was so corrupted and perverted, nobody wanted anything to do with him so his own guards killed him and his family all except Claudius. America is going in the same direction as that, because if you look at history, all of America's wars after we gained freedom away from Britian was started by Republicans. Is this a coincidence?

    Now that I am ending my rant, the last thing I would like to say is...I'd much rather live in friggin' Ireland.
     
  7. Ferret
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    Ferret Contributing Member

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    Hmmm...it's rather unorthidox for a new member of any forum to challenge the vets or God forbid a mod, but I do diasagree on several points, libertarinism ftw.
    Bush being a pupet...The Grassy knowl I tell you!
    Any-who, Clinton was a tolerable pub speaker at best... it was the monitone that got me.
    I honestly have no idea what the roman empire's army has to do with bush...or the US military...
    As for wars WW2=bigest war ever= Roosevelt=Demy...but he didnt start it..dang
    On a Final note, Eragon is awesome
     
  8. Sapphire
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    Sapphire Senior Member

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    I would think this is self explainitory but we're in the Iraq War and losing a lot of people. Most of our military is middle class citizens as well, and our middle class is shrinking on its own anyway without the help of the military. No country can have a successful government without the middle class.

    Hellz ya! :D
     
  9. Frost
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    Frost Contributing Member

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    Pretty much.

    The likeness between not just the Roman empire, but every other empire and America's empire, comes down to waste - waste of people(most notably, like you said, the middle class) and waste of resources.

    Rome: Sent it's armies packing off accross the known world, into hopelessly impossible situations, killing them off too easily.

    America: Sending it's armies too far across the world, which is guzzling precious funds and killing off the middle class in America.

    Mayan(and other South American empires): Human sacrifice of the middle class, and reckless waste of it's resources such as wood and gold.

    American: Not the human sacrifice bit, but definatley reckless waste of money and oil.

    Babylon: Corruption.

    America: Getting pretty close.

    So ya.
     
  10. Sapphire
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    Sapphire Senior Member

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    ^ That's basically what it's narrowed down to. If you look at history and now, you will see that we are going the exact same direction as the other fallen empires do. If people would've studied history a little more, maybe we could've avoided the mistakes that peopel have made in the past. It's not just our american history, but we also have to look at world history as well, and not just our own.

    Also, about the war, we have dragged ourselves into a hopeless war which we cannot win. If we are fighting people who are willing to strap a bomb onto a child and blow us up, and are not afraid of death, then why the hell are we fighting them? They are in the middle of a civil war over there anyway. We just ran our asses right smack in the middle of a relgious war. And we've brought our own crap in the middle of it. That's part of the reason why I don't have a religion (I'm not atheist, I believe in God and Jesus, but I just don't categorize myself as a Christian).
     
  11. Eoz Eanj
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    Eoz Eanj Contributing Member Contributor

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    Hrm, from what I understand, this whole war thing isn’t actually about fighting to 'win'. It's all about controlling the situation, or attempting to control the situation. Soldiers from all nations have thrown themselves into countries like Iraq in attempt to control the damage that is being done by the extremists. If the soldiers from nations like Australia, America and England were to just pack up now and be all like, ‘Yeah man, that’ll do’ and leave, then countries such as Iraq, will end up destroying themselves.
    Millions of innocent people will suffer and die because they have no way to defend themselves against the various assorted groups of rebels, rouges and religious extremists that plague the Middle East. Stacks of money, time and effort given on behalf of other countries is being invested into war-torn places like Iraq in attempt to stabilize it socially, politically and economically. All these resources are being pumped into highly effected areas like Baghdad in order to repair the damage that has occurred, (for example the re-construction and development of infrastructure) to train local soldiers to help them fight their own battles (my mum’s friend is currently serving in Baghdad as a forensics officer training Iraqi soldiers in the fields of forensic science, mechanics and war strategies) and to ultimately aid the government in the political reform of their nation. Yeah the whole, ‘war is a stupid idea, too many people are dying, all this is futile, everything’s going to turn to crap anyway’ ideology is somewhat realistic to think right now in 2006, but I believe, over a very long period of time, all this invested effort will have an effect, a positive one at that. Yeah, I know, why should we, wealthy, 1st world countries send our people to fight in a war that usually results in more damage than healing? Well, all I can say is the easiest way for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing and if all the soldiers pull out now, then we’re basically handing nations like Iraq over to the bad guys and saying “Here, I don’t want it anymore, you have it”.
     
  12. IndianaJoan
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    IndianaJoan Contributing Member

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    I will tell you what pisses me off about America

    1. Land of the Free, Home of the Brave (My ass.)

    Who has time for freedom? Who has time to protest? Benefits get worse, pay gets worse and I work and work and work with little time off to what end? Just to make ends meet, which CANT be done easily on a single income anymore.
    Employers dont give a rats ass about employees anymore and EVERYONE is expendable.
    We Americans work through holidays and our childrens school events. We work relentlessly for the almighty dollar while missing out on the REAL reason we were put on this earth, to enjoy it. Other countries SHUT DOWN on holidays. No open wal marts on thanksgiving, no open grocery stores on christmas. The streets are empty and everyone is with their families where they should be. BUT NOT HERE! OH NO!

    2. The Religious fundamentalists that have made it their business to form laws based on their own moral agendas. What the hell ever happened to seperation of church and state?

    Anyway, thats my rant!
     
  13. Ferret
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    Ferret Contributing Member

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    http://www.icasualties.org/oif/

    Presuming tis information is correct, and the link doesn't die on me..we've lost less in this war then we did in whole battles in the world wars...

    Not to be nit-picky...but I thought the spanish kicked the shit out of the mayans...didnt they? I dont know.

    Expending resources; meh...it doesnt take three months like it used to move stuff around the world...money being the bid deal here...expending money...unless we declare bunkrupacy...this isnt gonna casue our downfall....

    England one of the greastest empires ever did well enough with two classes; Noble and pig shit...militarily.


    @Indie I'm sorry if people don't themselves before others, but that has never happened...if you don't like capitalism...like it seems you dont....dind a nice little Communism...in the southern emipshere...

    Curch and state shouldn't walk hand in hand...or acoss the street from each other for that matter.


    My two cents take it or leave it...too tired to quote....
     
  14. IndianaJoan
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    IndianaJoan Contributing Member

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    Because I dont like where my country is at the moment does not in any way mean i want to become a communist and lets not start slinging mud here ok?

    I have opinions, agree to disagree but dont insult me. :)
     
  15. Ferret
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    Ferret Contributing Member

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    The parts of your soul you refuse to recognize.
    I doapplogize for what I said..truth be told I was tryig be saracastic but forgot the appropriate /sarcastic/ as usual...I did not mean to insult...honestly.

    The point on the other hand was...not well put...there are two things that you can do in life;
    1. Sit on the sidelines
    2. Make waves
    This from a college proffessor I've known for some years...
    Again I appoligize....
    Soulda pmed ya....sorry.
     
  16. Felony
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    Felony Contributing Member

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    "sorry to burst your bubble bro but i wouldn't call america an empire as it's not america's job to take over other countries but to bring peace to them"
     
  17. IndianaJoan
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    IndianaJoan Contributing Member

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    No problem. No worries. I get a little fired up over politics and such..I just want us to be careful about forming opinions about each other solely based on what we think of other's political viewpoints. Dont worry about it. I dont hate America, I just think the biggest tragedy of all is that we just work ourselves to death.
     
  18. Frost
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    Frost Contributing Member

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    "oh yeah man of course, how could i forget? america is like the angels of light for war torn countries"
    :rolleyes:

    To person who said spanish kicked the shit out of mayans: Yes they did, but the Spanish fell down eventually too, remember for the same reason.
     
  19. Nexus
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    Nexus Contributing Member

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    I think this topic shouldn't be discussed much more. With such a diverse group of people, politics can be extremely dangerous.

    Anyone agree?
     
  20. IndianaJoan
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    IndianaJoan Contributing Member

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    I think its more important that people learn to respect the opinions of others so that topics like this CAN be discussed.

    We spend far too much time being politically correct in fear of offending someone else.

    I take no offense to discussing politics as long as it doesnt get personal. And I think we are all adults enough to manage that! :)

    IMHO
     

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