President Obama.

Yes, he actually has to do something wrong. I have a feeling Pelosi and Harry will impeach him when he refuses to be a figurehead mouthing what they want him to do.

 

Actually I love Obama. Impeach Clinton... and her husband is a bumper sticker I remember from back in the day.

 

there's nothing to be happy about, just wait for him to do something, then we can be happy

 

Damn, people here don't seem to know the meaning of socialism.

Obama is not a socialist. He is left of center. He is nowhere near radical socialism, or even the social democracy of the Scandinavian countries.

 

Funny how, despite his socialist tendencies, the ACTUAL socialist party refused to endorse him and repeatedly spoke out against him and McCain, saying that they are both dirty capitalists etc etc.

He must not be able to get his party base or something. Because, you know, actual socialists don't even like him.

People who call him socialist = no understanding of politics or economics. He's not a socialist. Oh, I do hate his economic policy. But I hated McCain's too, so it made no difference to me. They both sucked about equally. Both equally socialist. Too "socialist"! But in reality, while both could be better, they are so incrementally different it's absurd. Pointless to judge them on economic policy.

And so I chose based on foreign policy, intelligence, speaking ability, charisma, judgement, and leadership skills. And Obama won on all accounts. So...


Not to mention, nobody cares what conservatives think anyway. Conservatism in America is brain-dead right now. They've got no leaders, no plan, and practically no support. Sorry, but it's true. The Republican party really is at a nadir, and if they continue to act stupidly and Obama continues to act intelligently (all evidence points to this conclusion) then really we are in for Liberal domination of US politics for years to come.

Not to mention that, whatever your political views, you simply must recognize that Obama is a master of rhetoric. His speech wasn't a great speech. It doesn't have one linersw that will be remembered for long "only thing to fear...ask not what your country can do for you...etc etc" and it didn't have the qualities of a great speech. It was, however, a PERFECT speech for what he wanted to accomplish. That is, he wanted to look sincere, presidential, moderate, cerebrial, and he wanted to speak to people across the world. And he did that perfectly. It wasn't a speech with a lot of pyrotechnics like his convention speech, it was a speech with gravitas...which was exactly what he needed.

Liberalism! Woo! I love it.

 

Most Americans are clueless about what Socialism is. We grow up hearing “it is bad, it is bad, it is bad.” And it is difficult to get out of our minds. We are raised to worship capitalism at all costs. Free market is the answer to all the world’s woes. I wish people would be more flexible in their world views and understand that it is possible to take the good and leave the bad from different systems. I love being able to make a good living and I enjoy being paid a fair wage (more or less) for my work. But some things could do with a little socializing, such as our health care system and our education system. There are countries in Europe where everyone is entitled to free health care and everyone is entitled to a free college education. But in the US if you say those things are good you will be branded a Commie.

I like what Obama said, that it isn’t about big government or small government, it is about what works. And right now there is much about the way we do things that don’t work. Frankly, I don’t think Obama is “left enough” to accomplish all the things I want, but it is a step in the right direction. But it remains to be seen. Words are nice and all but actions are more important.

I was pleasantly surprised that he actually mentioned restoring science to its rightful place. I found that much more comforting than all the “God talk”.

 

Correct. I was also very glad when he added "...and non-believers" to the end of his little talk on religion...that made me happy.

I don't agree with the rest of your post though. The solution for the educational system is more private schools, not less. And the solution for the healthcare system does not lie in universal healthcare.

There's nothing bad or evil about socialism. It's not extraordinarily amoral or corrupt or anything. It just doesn't work. It's as simple as that...free markets are proven to work by history, by economics, and by common sense. Socialism is proven not to work by history, by economics, and by common sense. That's the end of the line for me really...

 

This kind of comment has no place here.

 

Really??? Sorry, Cogito. Is it the “clueless” tag? If I said “Most Americans don’t know what Socialism really is” would that be OK? If I said “Most Americans are clueless as to where Suriname is on a map” would that also be crossing the line? Every board draws their lines in different places. I like this board so I just want to know where that line is so I can stay well away from it.

It probably doesn’t matter, but I am an American.

 

That's not really our fault. There are just so many different kinds of socialism it's hard to keep them all straight. There's: Communism (the Lenin and Stalin versions), Marxism, National Socialism (aka Fascism), Democratic Socialism, Social Democracy (which is different from Democratic Socialism in its implementation), Libertarian Socialism, Social Anarchism, African Socialism, Latin American Socialism and American Socialism (the US version, yeas we have our own version but it's more social policy than economic policy)... its all just so confusing. And those are just the economic policies that have 'socialism' attached to them it would take pages to list the various different kinds of social policies with the word attached. Also I feel I should mention not all socialism is anti-capitalism. Some socialism is even anti-capitalist and anti-socialist (economy wise) which is what national socialism was. Some versions are actually pro-capitalism or mixed economy. Socialism isn't a one definition ideology. Marx's original theories are so broken and lacking in any concept for implementation the really interesting thing about socialism is how all the different groups try to fill in the blanks in a vain attempt to make those broken concepts work which results in a wide range of things that are called socialism.

There are so many different kinds of socialism with so many different methods of implementation and methodology that to actually try and memorize all of them would probably be a major waste of time. All we need to know is that it's always worked in the short term and collapsed in the long term.

Back on topic: Obama is a public socialist (there's probably a proper term for it but I studied economic socialism last semester not the various public policies that use the word). You can call it left of the center or whatever but many of his positions on social policy are clearly in line with the american concept of socialism (which is generalizing. I doubt there's a single source out there that can sum up everything that fits under the word "socialism"). I don't find him to heavy in economic socialism. I say his more mixed economy with a slight command lean. Either way we're stuck with him now *crosses fingers and prays for it all to work out in the end like I do every 4 years*

 

I assume you are talking about primary and secondary school? I don't have a problem with private schools because we already offer socialized education in the primary and secondary schools, but we do not pay enough to the teachers in these public schools, driving the best teachers to the private schools.

I am referring to higher education. I would like to see a college education guaranteed in the same way a primary and secondary education is. Other countries make this work, why can't we? I don't want to abolish private schools. Just like even though I believe everyone should be entitled to health care, I don't want to take away someone's right to go see a more expensive doctor at their own expense.

Look, I'm not a political or economic expert, and I know I may be a little too idealistic. It is just, I believe that everyone should be entitled to good health care and a good education regardless of their station in life. Why is the poor kid less deserving of a college education than the rich kid? No, I don't think we should all make the same amount of money. No I don't think everyone is entitled to two cars, a large house, and a bunch of luxuries from their government. But darn it, give them health care and an education. See where they go from there. Anyway, I wish President Obama the best of luck.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster smile down upon you and yours.

 

Fine then, but the label is extraordinarily useless. As you have just proved. John McCain is a socialist, I'm probably a socialist, we're all some kind of socialist. Really I think the question is

"Is Barack Obama extremist?"

And the answer is no, he's extremely moderate. People fail to realize how amazingly centrist all of American politics is. It's a factor of the two party system that politicians always move towards the center...I can prove this with positive political theory models too. Obama is no exception.

I'm talking about all schools, and the second half of that statement is simply...false...a simple confusion of facts. Not even debatable facts, in fact. The facts actually show that private schools on average pay a LOT less than public schools. Just ask my mother who is a teacher...she knows from job hunting where the biggest salaries are. They're in urban schools. The urban schools pay their teachers the most AND get the most money in general. And they have the biggest drop out rates.

Now why that is, would take me forever to talk about so I won't go into it. But it has nothing to do with money, or with how teachers are begin paid. That's just how the numbers fall, my friend.

As for college education...that's really not a good idea. I don't want the colleges to turn into what the primary and secondary schools are: A MESS. If you did that, simply expect to see the quality of college educations go down and the cost of college educations go up. That simple. You have to know, these programs have costs attached to them as nice as they might be...

They aren't! And I try to gear every simgle aspect of my economics towards helping the poor. BUT!!! There are way better ways to help the poor than the ones you outline! Way better ways. Public healthcare and public schools might *seem* to help the poor, but the keyword is seem. You know in your gut that they help the poor. As Colbert would say. But if people used their brains and looked at the economic data...it's just not true. Those programs don't benefit anyone. Actually, I lie, they benefit the rich...and promote corruption. Woo.

Me too! He's a very bright man and I think he'll make a better president than we've seen for decades. I'm glad he's in office. Heck, I am a liberal after all.

And may he touch ye with his Noodly appendage and guide ye footsteps carefully!

 

All members TAKE NOTICE

As with every thread dealing with controversial subjects, this one will be closely watched. As long as everyone remains respectful toward everyone else's beliefs, the thread may continue.

FAIR WARNING! In the past, we have simply closed the thread when it gets too heated. This time, whoever takes it to the point that requires it to be closed will also be subject to an infraction.

We have had a very poor track record with politics-based threads in the past, and this is why we will follow a zero-tolerance policy on this one.

So please keep the tone respectful at all times. More so than it has been up until now.

 

When ever Obama speaks in his speeches his mannerism suddenly reminds me of Abraham Lincoln mixed with Martin Luther King Junior.

I'm so glad Obama is our president.

McCain was another Bush.

And Bush already dug us a grave.

We need to begin to get dug out of this grave.

McCain would have never let out of this grave, he would make more mistakes.

 

I do have to agree with that. I find the organization of his speeches as very Lincoln and his method of delivery very King (not that I'm an expert on speech just that those are two names that pop up when I read/listen to his speeches). No one can deny the guy knows how to give one heck of a speech.

EDIT: Now that I think of it his character strikes me as being very similar to that of Lincoln as well.

2nd Edit: Crap. They're both from the Illinois state legislature too aren't they XD. Reincarnation anyone?

 

Wow, I find that very interesting. I’m sure the reasons are complicated. I’ll have to do some research and educate myself a bit on why that is.

See, this is why I like spirited debate.

 

LOL at "socialist" Obama. I WISH he was a socialist! Jesus christ.
Unfortunately I fear this will be even worse than Bush, because there will be less criticism despite not much changing in foreign policy.
Domestically, hopefully this helps a small amount, cutting funding for abstinance-only education and various small things I would HOPE for, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

what?? why?

 

It is now Abraham Marting King Lincoln Junior...reincarnated amazingly.
lol!





No, I don't expect quick changes.
But I want to see at least in his presidency someone who will be trying to get us out of this grave.
I want to see the beginning of that elevator being built.
Let's hope Obama truly has a way to get us out.

 

I think the usage of the term "socialism" does a lot to confuse the debate... This is how I see it:

• Socialism is a political system where the means of production (i.e the economy) are directly controlled by the state. It's been the political system of the Soviet Union, eastern Europe, Cuba, China, and some other places. In practice, it is also signified by a plan economy, a one-party system, and a lack of civil liberties, since everything, including the justice system, is under direct political control.
• Communism is a (hypothetical) state of society which is classless, i.e everyone is equal. Socialist countries typically have a communist ideology, i.e hope to achieve communism some day.
• The political system used in Western European countries is essentially the same as the one in the United States. Political power is assigned by electing representatives in a general vote where anyone can register new parties. Civil liberties are guaranteed by law. Courts rule by law, not by political decisions. Private property is generally respected. The economy is dominated by a free, capitalist market.

The differences between Europe and the United States, like the amount of taxes, the question of free health care, the strength of labour unions, and the degree of social security, are merely differences in political policy. They tend to tilt the economy closer to a free market or closer to a plan economy, but mostly the political system is the same.

So when someone, for example, refers to Obama as "socialist", they probably mean that his policies are influenced by socialist ideas, not that he promotes a socialist system.

Also, it may seem like nitpicking, but there's actually a great deal of difference between calling someone "socialist" and "a socialist". Calling someone "a socialist" implies that they buy the whole socialist ideology, but calling someone "socialist" merely implies that they have some degree of socialism in them. (It's because in the first case, "socialist" is used as a noun which the subject is identified with, while in the second case it is used as an adjective. It's like the difference between calling someone "spanish" or "a spaniard", or calling someone "salesman-like" or "a salesman".)

 

The first Obama "improvement": $100,000,000 spent on his coronation. (That money could have fed 10,000 poor people for a year!)

ps Bush spent 40% of that much and got roundly criticized by the press.

 

Yeah, it gets pretty extravagant. The actual coronation, the swearing in ceremony, however, only cost about 1.2 million. The big bucks are blown on all the security and the parties. The security is understandable. You can't get around that. It is the parties that go overboard in my opinion. However, the people going to those parties are the rcih folks who actually footed the bulk of that 100 million dollar bill. Still, it is too much.

 

At the very least, I think it is an amazing thing to see so many Americans who have been, or felt, disenfranchised by our political system -- now feel included.

A very large number of Americans are people of color. In fact, it is predicted that soon American Caucasians will be in the minority. People of color are statistically underrepresented in governmental positions of power. Combined with a recent history of slavery, segregation and discrimination this doesn't generally inspire them to participate in the political process or feel included.

Now that they feel included and inspired by Obama's call to serve, imagine the possibilities for volunteering and change. Service isn't something that costs money. It is volunteering your time and resources and making sacrifices to make our nation a better place.

If this is the only good thing that comes from this Presidency it will still be an amazing thing in terms of "Change".

Did you know that for non-emergency legislation he will allow all Americans to weigh in with their opinions for four weeks before he signs it via www.whitehouse.org?

It should be interesting to see how inspired Americans really are to serve by this Obama presidency.

 

That assumes that everyone is lying in that system and won't lie in others. Lying goes on in all forms of goverment, and can happen the the ways to help the poor you say exist but haven't mentioned. And since when is there any goverment that is free of corruption?

 

Are you sure you have the right URL, Sunset? I checked out the site, and it looks like another Bush-bashing site, the greeting being "The Officious Website of George W. Bush," and further down the page were some headlines that contained some words that definitely arent for all ages.

If this is indeed true that Obama will be reaching out online to the American people (I'm not sure; this is the first I'm hearing about it, from you), please make sure you have the right site. Did you mean "editted"?