Yes, I do. Both of them have to die. My original praise was based on this assumption... Write me in the novel as a character( 6'7, 385 lb biker, pls) and I will shoot them myself.
And this is the fine line that needs to be walked. On the one hand there are people who say that she has a high sex drive and that needs no further explanation and it's just my preconceived notions that are the problem. On the other hand there's people who see this kind of behavior as inherently concerning. Any counselor in the whole world will tell you that kids who abuse substances, are violent and are sexually active are at extreme risk. I do agree that some girls just have high sex drives. Which she does. But equally I agree that it shouldn't be played like that has no meaning; like her thrill seeking is just a preference that has no greater meaning to her. Clearly it does mean something to her and when she deliberately decides not to do that with Marcus it means a lot to her, it shows that she sees Marcus as being something more important to her. I definitely don't want to put her across as if she needs to change and she's terribly broken before hand. That's awful. But clearly she is going to grow and change away from who she previously was and she won't do that if she's 100% happy. I think that the answer here is to look in a different direction. Oz is the product of the life she's lived. I think that she acts the way she does because she was brought up that way and has never really though about it beyond that. She's doing what she sees as being normal and since that's fun and really that's all her dad taught her to think about. That's certainly how the gang works, they just have fun and that seems to be enough for them. But as she meets someone who's different to the guys she's known before maybe she starts to think about what actually works for her and what will really make her happy going forward. To put it in more average terms; being a kid who's parents got you into playing a sport or an instrument and when they're younger they are really into it but as they become older and assert more of their own personality they look elsewhere for things that express them. That doesn't mean they hate football suddenly, they still had a good time and remember it fondly. But when they find something that really clicks with them in a different way then they pick up a guitar or a paint brush and they see this is really what they want to be doing. So from that angle, her past sex life isn't really indication of some damage. It's just what seemed the thing to do. And that was fun. She had a good time. Some good stories. But suddenly she meets Marcus and she starts thinking about what she really wants; what's really going to make her happy and express what she really feels. Looked at this way it's more a natural part of her growth, not an easy step to take for her but she can make it through and be happy because she's found her. It gets around the idea that her past is bad or wrong and that it didn't actually make her happy. It did. But she grows a bit and now something else is more what works for her now. After all, Marcus is the guy who's encouraging her to be artistic and expressive, things that she enjoys but hasn't taken seriously because she's thinking about the next party. And maybe just that nudge, along with a little discomfort at seeing her past actions have hurt people is enough for her to decide that that isn't really who she wants to be going forward. I really do agree with you though; when I was sleeping around I was really not happy. I didn't even have a high sex drive really. I really needed people to love me because that's what made me feel ok about myself. It's important to remember that it's not necessarily the case that the two go together, of course, and I don't want that to be who she is. But it's hard not to see myself in a character like that. I know I told people that I just had a high sex drive, that there was nothing wrong with me, that I just like girls and sex and whisky. And that was a lie.
A high sex drive per se just means that she likes sex and wants it on a regular basis, perhaps with no strings or commitments... but that doesnt mean she can't have standards or that she needs to sleep with everyone who asks for example i have a good female friend who sleeps around - she's a widow and says shedoesnt want another relationship but she does like sex, however she won't just hook up with just anyone and she's looking for men who will be a good lay but also be discrete and not want more than shes offering, plus she won't sleep with married men or anythone commiting infidelity (and no we havent - she doesn't sleep with friends either , because the friendship mtters more than sex) That sort of thing is very different from hooking up with anything with a penis and a pulse - the former is a lifestyle choice different from 'mainstream', the latter is an indicator of low self worth
I dunno man. Like I say every single book I've written always was planned to end like that. It seemed so awesome when I started and then just sort of sputtered. Once I got there it just seems kinda cheap to just have them drop dead. It kinda lets them off the hook, you know? They have to deal with their shit not just run away from it, or worse, just get steamrolled by it. That's why I've always shied away from it. I also don't want it to just literally be Romeo and Juliette with the genders flipped. I mean, if it just follows the same points then they aren't really interesting and unique characters; we already know the ending.
If you have two protagonists from two warring biker gangs, the possibilities are endless. You can definitely have them killed and have it make sense. The notion of forbidden, young hot love ending in disaster doesn't get old.
I don't think it's quite as cut and dried as that. There's some grey in the middle between 'casual' and 'anything that moves'. She's an attractive girl who moves in very heavily male circles. To a lot of boys her age she's a dream come true; a girl who likes their music, will come mosh pitting with them and give them a damn good seeing to afterwards. She can really have her pick with the wave of a hand. That doesn't mean that she doesn't have standards but it's hardly difficult for her to find someone who meets them too. Oz definitely won't sleep with just anyone. But when someone takes her fancy then she won't waste time. Remember, she sees the world differently. She's someone who's grown up thinking that the bikers are normal and everyone else is weird. It genuinely doesn't occur to her that some of the boys she sleeps with actually want her as a girlfriend not just a shag. Why would she? I don't think she has low self esteem. I think she's self-centered, selfish even, but most teens are. She has some growing up to do to get through that. But I just don't think that character is doing it to escape or something. I think she's doing it without thinking because that seems normal to her.
@LostThePlot You don't have to kill them. Maybe their affair leads to his dad's death, and he loses it, avenges him, and takes over the gang, just when she was willing to quit. Or maybe she is unable to end her promiscuous ways and as a result he leaves her. The possibilities are endless. All I know is if you make them escape the gang and love together happily ever after, I'm going to be disappointed.
Oh I'm not saying it couldn't work or make sense. But it feels so facile to me and is in essence a get out of plot free card; you only need to write a beginning and middle and then they die and there's no satisfying conclusion. It can work but oh my god it's been done so many times. And, frankly, no-one wants to read anything else I've written that ends in tragedy.
Can I interest you in any of the six other books I've written that go like that? Don't get me wrong; I like that kind of thing. But I'm specifically trying to get away from writing downer endings because I can't get anyone interested in them except me. Edit - If it makes you feel better; they aren't getting away from the gang. The two of them will stay together but she's going to join an outlaw biker gang and earn a living the same way as her dad. Marcus can live with it because at least he can get away from where he grew up and at least the bikers don't sell drugs but there's going to be plenty of times in the future when Oz comes home with someone elses blood on her knuckles. It's not happily ever after, but they are happy enough for the time being, but living in a really dangerous environment still. Like I said earlier, I'm really trying to get away from writing 'other dark stuff with romance' and into 'romance with other dark stuff'. It's a story about the two of them, about them as characters and their relationship. Some other stuff crosses over there, of course, particularly with their parents, but it's mostly two opposites attracting, and them sorting out their stuff. Trying to fit too much into a book is how I've ended up with books that aren't really a genre at all. There's a bit of romance, a bit of family strife, a bit of weirdness, some dark stuff, some self harm, some drugs. I'm pretty sure I write good books, I particularly write excellent romance and family stuff; but all that extraneous crap that eats up space and focus means that my books languish on my hard drive doing nothing because it takes a paragraph to describe the genre.
If you want to get away from downer endings, not basing your plot off shakespeares tradgedies might not be a bad idea
It's not based off it. The only point that's shared is two kids who's families don't like each other. That's it.
@LostThePlot maybe I was thrown off by your mention of Shakespeare You should consider your audience. If this a romance, find out if romance readers are going to be interested in grittybiker warfare. If this is an action, you probably should be spending less time agonizing every detail regarding the sexual personalities of your protagonists and more time researching biker gangs. If this is a drama, given your premise, it's going to be a hard sell convincing me that the two characters just run off and live off together forever. I'm going to doubt that ending(probably). You've got a hyper sexual girl who loves her gang, a nerd who hates his, and the gangs are hardcore and hate each other. I don't believe that endings generally get slapped on. They are determined by the premise of your novel. I'm not saying you can't make a happy ending, you can have them fly away together in a car while singing, if you want. In the end it comes down to your vision. But if they do run away together, to me, that invalidates somewhat the necessity of having two biker gangs to begin with. That sort of a lifestyle seems so bizarre and unsustainable to me, that I can't help but feel the only resolution is disaster.
That's my point though; it's a romance. It's about them. Not about anything else. The bikers and the gangs are the background here. It's a story focused on Oz and Marcus first and foremost; them together. Everything else is set dressing. And it's interesting but the background is still the background and the focus of the story is the two of them. Two kids from different worlds figuring out they are nuts about each other and working out their problems together. They have some things in common, they have some things not, the not seems for a moment like it might break them up but in the end they make it work. They aren't just running off into the wind together either, remember Oz is staying with the gang, that's her dream, to have a cut and a harley and ride with the boys. I've never said they are going to run off together. The story doesn't in any way follow Romeo and Juliet; that's just short hand for this kind of 'warring households' kind of story. In fact, if you read back to the first post you'll see the plan is that the two kids getting together is something that helps the two leaders to settles their differences.
That sounds even less likely than them running off into the sunset if i'm How much do you know about bikers and biker gangs - especially the hard core back patch club variety ? The chances of say angels and outlaws burying their differences because two kids have got together are basically nil ... even if the individual gang leaders wanted to the organisations wouldn't allow it (side point don't use real gang names like Hells angels, Black pistons, Outlaws etc - they don't like it... make something up )
I like most of the idea, but 'Biker Gang' is a little Sharks & Jets to my eye, 'Bikers' a bit stiffy to a UK audience. THo' I realise 'Bikers' in the US are a more threatening, and dangerous proposition. 'It's set in the breakneck world of heavy metal motorcyclists...' 'Oh, dreary. You mean chaps without girlfriends, live with their mums and dads, and tinker when not fixing engines?' 'Yes.' ... It's only an opinion, however if you'd said the RoadRAts, I'd have had your back in blood.
My ex's dad was a patched biker and he's who I'm drawing from, particularly his relationship to his daughter. Remember this isn't two biker gangs fighting, this is one biker gang in one town, one urban street gang. The two squabble over turf but their business doesn't overlap. When I say "it's a Romeo and Juliet affair" I mean two scions of warring houses falling in love. It's the same set up not the same exact story.
Go and find a Hells angel to say that too , or an Outlaw ..... it been nice knowing you Bikers in the uk are pretty much the same as anywhere else except the patch system is different , instead of 1, 2, 3 patches the uk system is front patch = bunch of blokes who like riding bikes , side patch =affiliated to one of the big gangs but not generally actually involved in their activities , back patch= heavy duty criminal types (HA have the south of the country, Outlaws have the north, although its variable)
How can their business not overlap - surely they are both into drugs, whores, and protection... which is why they squabble over turf. Turf for turfs sake is a kids thing, for criminal gangs its about markets
That's a bit of a reductionist reading, don't you think? It's a romance. Obviously it shares similarities with other romances. Obviously. It's for people who like romances. Not to be a dick here but I didn't ask how original you think the idea is. I wanted to discuss one specific character trait and im not going to justify why i think its worth writing just becuause you like your idea more than mine
This is seriously off topic tbh. The story isn't written and I'm not asking for criticism on how realistic the depiction of crime is in this Ya romance.
Come on @BSM, I'm not challenging your network, or your front patch. I was just thinking of a more modern interpretation - more Bianchi v The Muddy Fox.
I have no idea about the 'gang' angle of this story. However, I think a key element here that seems to be getting slightly overlooked in the discussion is Marcus. He's shy and doesn't like violence and wants to leave home ...but what does he think of her and her sexual history? If he sees through to the core of her and cares about her, he won't actually care that she's got a sexual history. Other than the STD angle, which would be important in any case. I'm curious as to how you see their sexual relationship starting. I'd like to think that he's fully into the sexual relationship as well and doesn't need coaxing. I hope he's not going to do or say ANYTHING that would make her ashamed of her sexual past. She needs to trust him, for this to work.
