1. Cave Troll
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    Cave Troll Bite the bullet, do your own thing. Contributor

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    Question for the weapons fans

    Discussion in 'Science Fiction' started by Cave Troll, Aug 17, 2015.

    I am not big on the standard(stereotypical) lasers and shields (energy based)
    What are you thoughts on custom made ballistic weaponry?
    The reason I ask is with in my novel that is still a WIP. A character is going to try and procure a very coveted sniper rifle for a subordinate to replace their older high caliber sniper rifle. A little about the weapon in question. It is a custom built bull-pup built by a machinist on Mars during the end of a war between Martian Colonials, and the Confederation. It was so precise in its crafting and rifling, it can give kill a soft target at 4 kilometers with out fail. Has a 20 round magazine, and fires a special 7mm tungsten bullet from a titanium casing utilizing a variant of C-4 t0 propel the dense metal ballistic. Just wondering what your thoughts are about a precision rifle that is so surgically precise in build and effective ness. Thanks.
     
  2. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Well I don't think there is such a possibility. In the sense that the weapon is just one half of the situation. The warrior being the other. I mean give a surgeons knife to a berserker and the cuts aren't likely going to be clean. Or as I believe the expression goes "I am a surgeon with this shotgun" also points out that a good marksman can do well with an ineffectively accurate weapon.

    Now. I believe even now on Earth we have a sniper that has shot almost that far. I think it was 2.9 kilometers if I recall correctly. Sure still off but not that far. The problem I have is with the word "without fail" That makes me picture me being able to use it that effective or like shooting it the wrng way and it still hitting the target because it is practically magic.

    Not sure exacly what else you were asking here. Just my immediate thoughts.
     
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  3. AspiringNovelist
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    AspiringNovelist Contributing Member

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    I'm not a weapons expert by any means -- although I do manage to cut myself from time-to-time in the kitchen . My first impression is 'why not' -- hell, the movie Wanted had the MC curving bullets..

    On a more serious note -- Is it possible to have a bullet travel 4K and be that accurate considering the distance, trajectory, wind, etc...
     
  4. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    It isn't about accuracy at that point but predicting the effect those forces will have on the projectile. lol.

    I heard some real life sniper rifles actually have things in them to try and compensate for the curviture of the Earth. Not sure if that is real. I am not a weapons expert either. lol
     
  5. Aaron DC
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    Aaron DC Contributing Member

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    Gravity affects objects that fly through the air for 4km unless the muzzle velocity is high enough to counteract it. Don't know the math but 4km is a long way in ballistics terms.

    Some other issues are:
    • how does the sniper clearly see a target 4km distant?
    • how do you account for air density changes obscuring true line of sight?
    • how long does it take a round to travel 4km and how do you guarantee the target has not moved during that time and that the path remains clear?
    • how much kinetic energy remains after 4km to ensure injury potential?
    • what sort of support system is in use to prevent the rifle moving at all for the 4km shot? At 4km, a minor movement at rifle is going to translate into large deviation after 4km.
     
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  6. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    OH And kickback! Or recoil! Because of Newton's third law right? Every action has a equal and opposite reaction. Meaning if it can push a bullet with enough force to kill after that distance it had a similar level of forcing going back to the gunman.
     
  7. Aaron DC
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    Aaron DC Contributing Member

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    Recoilless rifles :D
    eg: M60 (which is a gun but still).
     
  8. AspiringNovelist
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    AspiringNovelist Contributing Member

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  9. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yeah but they can't just be innately without recoil. Right?
    So they have a system built in. Can that system still work at such power? Then does that system detract in any way? Such as making it heavier or bulkier? Admittingly not real weaknesses to such a long range weapon but going with your list.. Still somthing to think about. Right?
     
  10. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Well the record with conventional is 2.5 K, I don't see why 4 couldn't be done with all that stuff you said. I do have a problem with it being a bullpup. Whatever way we get to a kill at over 3 miles, it's going to involve a really long barrel.
     
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  11. Aaron DC
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    Aaron DC Contributing Member

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    Sorry yes definitely. Although I would posit heavier == better for a sniper rifle. :D
     
  12. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    lol That is why my phrasing was "Then does that system detract in any way?"

    ;)
     
  13. AspiringNovelist
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    AspiringNovelist Contributing Member

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    I say why piddle-paddle, nuke 'em.
     
  14. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    @Cave Troll
    Are we still on topic to what you were asking? I am afriad we might have wondered off. lol Sorry
     
  15. Cave Troll
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    Cave Troll Bite the bullet, do your own thing. Contributor

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    To address a few things.

    It is a human made weapon, so for arguments sake it is going to have limitations (like range). As for nuking things. I have plans for using a long range bunker buster missiles on robot soldiers in strategic strikes. Not going for a kill everything in sight. There are far more powerful man portable/vehicle mounted weapons that have way more outlandish ranges: Coil Guns, Rail Guns, etc. I understand that you would have to adjust for gravity, and the like. There is a reason I distinctly changed the system of delivery of the bullet as it would be much heavier, rendering gunpowder useless in the building formula. As for a scope, it is a telescopic that adjusts automatically to the range that is within its field. This is all fictional in construct. Besides considering it is only a 7mil it could be plausible, where a .50 would be outrageous (not to mention need to have super powers to even cart it around and fire it.) Not creating things to far outside of reasonability. What next, Aliens can't have limitations despite being highly advanced? Cause they all use some sort of projectile weapon. Along with combat knives, and swords. What about the use of both tanks and war frames? This could spiral into a vicious cycle that it does not have to become. Just thought I would try and be a little less stereotypical with my weaponry, cause I think the whole laser thing is a huge cliché copout. Damn. Next time I will use homing vampire fangs propelled by unicorn farts, that only work when the operator is thinking about having sexual escapades with a spork.

    Just for fun, the longest shot that I know of was done by a guy using only the standard sights on a rifle. Hitting a 10in metal plate at like 5 miles. It was on Ripley's Believe it or Not, like 5-6 years ago.
     
  16. Aaron DC
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    Aaron DC Contributing Member

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    http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/longest-confirmed-sniper-kill

    Confirmed by GPS, Craig Harrison (UK) of the UK’s Household Cavalry killed two Taliban insurgents from a distance of 2,474 m/2.47 km (8,120 ft, or 1.54 miles) in November 2009. It took the 8.59 mm rounds almost three seconds to hit their targets, which were 914 m (3,000 ft) beyond the L115A3 sniper rifle’s recommended range. A third shot took out the insurgent’s machine gun. The rifle used was by Accuracy International.
     
  17. Shadowfax
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    Shadowfax Contributing Member Contributor

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    In the three seconds that the bullet took to cover the distance, at a leisurely stroll of 3 mph, the target would have moved over 4 yards...
     
  18. Aaron DC
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    Aaron DC Contributing Member

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    Except OP is discussing a 4km shot, which means they would have walked closer to 6 yards yeah?
     
  19. Shadowfax
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    Shadowfax Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yes...except that... for the bullet to travel the extra distance, and have enough kinetic energy to minimise any potential atmospheric disturbances, I'd assume a higher muzzle velocity (and the metallurgy for the barrel to withstand the extra heat generated by this would, IMO, be the critical technological path) which would reduce the potential movement.

    I simply took a known "bloody good shot" and calculated the target's reasonable movement. So, in practice, you can only take such a shot with a target that appears to be stationary. Even one yard (typically only a couple of feet from one shoulder to the other) would be enough for the bullet to completely miss.
     
  20. Cave Troll
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    Cave Troll Bite the bullet, do your own thing. Contributor

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    Now we are talking. Not like that other guy. I know nothing of the math required to break it down physics wise. But essentially you summed up what the fictional design was trying to meet as far as requirements. So funny the way people try to deny the fact that error in judgment is a factor to consider. Obliviously there are things to consider that even in a fictional context it would be the luckiest shot in the universe at such long ranges outside of what already exists. Thank you for bringing some light on the subject.
     
  21. Shadowfax
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    Shadowfax Contributing Member Contributor

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    I have to disagree about it being a lucky shot.

    Two Taliban and a machine gun with three shots.

    That's not luck!

    It's also pretty quick shooting to get the second one before he had chance to react.

     
  22. KaTrian
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    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I'm seeing a sniper rifle with some future modifications, but maybe I'm not capable of thinking outside the box right now. Of course, those are used for long-range, accurate kills for a reason. You could do some research on weapons manufacturer' sites, see what kind of qualities are common to their high-end sniper rifles. E.g. Sako TRG range is fairly revered. I'm sure you'll also find videos on YouTube that explain what goes into the perfect sniper rifle.

    I'd also pay attention to the cartridge he uses. The World record was done with .338 Lapua Magnum. While you can't use that make and model (or at least it'd be weird to mention the name), your character might prefer something similar, so not everything in your caliber of choice goes. You can also take something from the real world and develop it a notch for your purposes (you're writing sci-fi, after all) like one of those sci-fi-becoming-sci bullets that can seek the target, so basically your character could readjust the trajectory if needed.
     
  23. Selbbin
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    Selbbin I hate you Contributor

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    I don't buy it, for most of the reasons stated.

    You might be able to get away with explaining an effective range of 4k, despite the obvious limitations, but a guaranteed hit is beyond silly, even with an expert marksman.
     
  24. Robert_S
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    Robert_S Contributing Member

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    The problem here, is the zoom factor, that is a consequence of the distance. For such a long distance, any tiny movement is going to cause the window to zip around.

    Zooms in computer games aren't accurate in that the sway motion is dampened or slowed, but that's not going to happen in real life. In real life, the sway causing the window to move will increase with zoom, that is a consequence of needing to see that far.
     
  25. Aaron DC
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    Aaron DC Contributing Member

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    My 400mm zoom lens experience is the first thing I thought of when contemplating a 4km shot. Even on a FF the length is tough to control.
     

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