Rejection, rejection, rejection...

Discussion in 'Traditional Publishing' started by deadrats, Aug 19, 2016.

  1. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I think you underestimate the odds because of your experience. But the problem is it's impossible to get true statistics in publishing, because hardly any of it is recorded in a way that statisticians can access.

    I do stand by what I said though. I think it's pretty self-evident!
     
  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I guess it depends on how you define "us"?

    Like, the odds are stacked against a random person who thinks s/he might like to write something from getting published, sure. But the more time and effort the person spends on the project, the better the odds get - you said that in your third point. So if we define "us" as "people with a strong interest in writing, with a mix of talent, effort, patience, flexibility, business sense, etc. etc." then the odds really aren't that bad. Assuming publication is the main goal.

    So maybe you and I are just talking about different versions of "us".


    ETA: May also depend on different versions of "published". There are the full-on scam publishers that obviously shouldn't be included, publishers so small they're no better than self-publishing that I don't think should be included, but then a whole lot of reputable small publishers that can do a good job of helping an author get started, and in some cases be a good home for the writer's entire career.

    I agree that the odds are stacked against someone who doesn't take the process seriously getting published by the Big Five; I disagree that the odds are stacked against someone who takes the process seriously getting published by a reputable publisher eventually.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  3. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    But what are you basing that on, besides your own experience?

    And when you say "really aren't that bad", what do you mean? Not as bad as 1 in 4,000? That I agree with. But not the 50% given above (which I don't think was given by you anyway)
     
  4. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Well, yeah, mostly my own experiences. I guess also the experiences of the many authors I know who are being published even though their work isn't breathtaking genius or anything.

    Also a bit on the stuff I see a lot of people self-publishing and submitting for publication or representation. Stuff that just isn't--publishable. IMO, obviously, but I think most people would agree.

    I don't know about actual numbers... there are too many variables at play.

    I mean, there are some manuscripts that are offered for sale and immediately get a bidding war and Big Five publishers going crazy over them, etc. The odds for that MS getting published were pretty damn close to 100% as soon as it was written/polished. There was something about it that made it perfect for the current publishing market.

    For a person with good natural talent who works at it and bends to the market and has the patience to keep trying, etc., etc., to eventually get published by a reputable publisher? I think the odds are - yeah, I'd say the odds are in favour of that person eventually getting published, so I guess that means over 50%.

    There are loads of wiggle words in that, obviously. It's hard for anyone to really say if the have natural talent, it's hard to figure out the best path by which to "work at it", the market is hard to judge so even if someone's willing to bend it may be hard to pick the right direction in which to bend, "eventually" is a very long time and a lot of people will give up before they get to that state, etc.

    Maybe it also depends on whether we're talking about an author or an individual work? I'm thinking in terms of an author eventually getting published - not necessarily a given work. That's where the "patience to keep trying" comes into it.

    Sorry if any of this is coming off as saying "oh, it's easy". I absolutely don't think it's easy.
     
  5. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Eh, we'll just have to disagree. Or wait for somebody to infiltrate the publishing world and get hold of numbers. That would be great... I LIKE NUMBERS, DAMMIT.
     
  6. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Just adding to your anecdotal evidence, I have have found the above to be true with my publisher. My first book was accepted by the Editor In Chief, and at the conclusion of the publication process she mentioned that it was such a pleasure working with me that they would love to have first crack at anything else I produced. I wrote a novella for one of their collections, but the editor in charge of that project rejected my manuscript on the grounds that it was a too gritty/sleazy for her tastes. I was just getting ready to submit it to another publisher, when the EIC emailed me and said that she'd heard the other editor rejected my MS, and would I be interested in sending it to her for possible general release. I did so and in about three weeks she sent me a publishing contract, no questions asked or revisions requested.

    Honestly, I felt that the collection editor had some very valid concerns that I was positive the EIC would share based on what I know about her, and I nearly fell off my chair when I got the contract. I absolutely believe that 90% of the reason she accepted it was because she enjoyed working with me on my first book and wanted to do so again.

    That said, the genre I write in (m/m romance) is a small niche one, but the readers are voracious for new material, particularly books on the plotty side that are decently written and not just insta-love smut. My first book was accepted three days after submission, and a friend of mine who also writes m/m had her first novel accepted the day after she sent it in. So it's definitely not just BayView having these kinds of publishing experiences.
     
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  7. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    SO what's the odds on THAT?
     
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  8. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    A lot of great anecdotes here, speaking as someone who's never even submitted anything to a publisher.

    I'm struck by @Laurin Kelly 's story, about how even just the way you interact with publishers on a personal level can affect your odds. Reminds me of applying for a first job (which is about as close as my experience comes to this). They always tell you it's not what you know, it's who you know, and I imagine the same might be true in publishing.

    It's a bit of a fallacy, I think, to imagine that the definition of "publishable" doesn't change from firm to firm, or from editor to editor, or even for a certain editor from day to day depending on their mood, whether they know the person submitting, etc. It's not like publishers aren't human beings too, and liable to influence by things other than quality and potential market value of a manuscript. I mean "quality" and "market value" themselves are never going to be objectively measurable or even really definable.
     
  9. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    I know these guys are talking about books...
    ...

    But when you get a short story published in a magazine, it is very exciting.

    The most exciting ever was/is the first one. That wasn't even a general publication - it was the Civil Service Magazine [or equivalent]. A real validation of effort, confirmation that you/I am not this foool. Bedtimes, my mind bloated in wonderful fantasy.

    I received a couple of e-mails from high-rise suit types - executives to the chief executive. But then 'story' disappears. Eleven people have read my story.

    Repeating the process a half-dozen times, another half dozen read the rubbish - more comedic this time, not the 'Dead Dad Memoir' any longer, [yawn] or 'Working With Disabilities...'

    No,

    so there is a treadmill element to the pursuit.

    Best would be to sit at home, really concentrate on your/my art arse. But me, I have no time for stay-at-home writers, me, no tolerance, get off your backside, then write about a world out there. Unless, you're a writer, of course, you stay where you are.

    The answer is to target audience - submit to magazines that actually do have a circulation, sounds obvious...I'll probably get my gear together, send a collection to an East London publisher because I've seen those guys at readings. Guys with books to sell, like a cut above the rest of us, stand under spotlight, the slim volume held to his chest:

    'My book, my travels across North Africaa...'

    I cough from the back row,

    'Kwaanka,' I cough.

    So, next step I wanna be in his shoes, so pretty, he had curly hair like a real author.
     
  10. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Hmm... I'm a stay-at-home writer, trying desperately to publish short stories in the magazines. I don't understand why you would have no tolerance for someone like me. I sure am trying to be a writer.
     
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  11. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    You're lovely, and maybe you are 22 and in the right place right now...just a principle - to see the light of day, mix things up, earn money, dig a ditch or three. What a bitch-man I am. Still, and remember @Rat, you are [at least] not an aspiring actor.

    I have a 'bug theme' developing along the lines of privilege - middle-class writers, I suppose, after I read a short piece [long-listed] about a 'writer in residence' on a housing estate, his difficulties among the troggs...but that's for another day.

    Got this evangelical zeal going - reading that fey shit - I'm working it through...gonna be the root writer - but grow my hair first...if I could.
     
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  12. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    On days I don't get rejection, I feel like the world in ignoring me. The majority of the emails I get come from Obitz.
     
  13. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    So, I didn't win the Glimmer Train contest and got two more rejections. But I did finish and add a new story to my roster of things on submission.
     
  14. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I don't even understand this level of rejection. WTF, literary journal editors? I don't suck. Everyone else sucks, not me. I'm not the problem here. Everyone else is the problem... But for real, I never thought I would have to try so hard to publish and be turned down so many times.
     
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  15. Integer

    Integer Member

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    Would you be able to post any of your work?
     
  16. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I suspect that voraciousness of the readership enters into it, especially when word count requirements are low.

    I remember reading, years ago, about how Mills and Boon operated. As long as you wrote to a halfway decent standard and within their guidelines, you were pretty much guaranteed to be published, because the company had to keep churning books out for voracious readers.

    I had a friend whose sister was a Mills and Boon addict. She had a huge pile of them in the attic, just dumped in the middle of the floor. I'd say the pile was about 6 feet in diameter and about 3 feet high. That's a lot of short books. She bought one every time she went to a store where they were sold.

    I think the cosy mystery market operates/operated something like this as well. Ditto old-style Westerns. I'm out of touch with niches, and have no idea what these equivalent niches are today. However, I think the principle holds. If you're trying to sell some non-niche product, you're going to have more trouble getting published than if you go for an established niche. It's even easier, apparently, if you go for a niche that has a quick turnover.
     
  17. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Are you getting ANY feedback along with your rejections? Or, have you taken a really close look at what these publications accept? Can you see any differences between your work and that of others who have been accepted—other than just quality and/or tone? Is there something about the nature of the stories they like that isn't quite the same as what you're telling?

    Speaking as somebody who has had the pleasure of reading a bit of your work, I can say I'm pretty surprised that nobody has taken it on. But then again, I don't know what these publications want, because I don't read them.
     
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  18. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    There is no MFA story. And I, for sure, have never read something that I would call pretentious by anyone who has been in an MFA program . Some people like to bash MFA programs, I get it. But I worked really hard to get this degree. And without having been through my program, I believe I would have zero chance at my goals. There's nothing to unlearn. That would just be foolish.

    I've hear people say before to lower your standards. That's never going to happen. I don't feel like I'm being unrealistic. I think it's just really, really hard. This is something that is very important to me. I am trying my best. I got an MFA so I could be my best. Sure, I still might not be good enough, and that is something I struggle with every day.
     
  19. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Feedback is usually a sentence or two saying something nice if that. And I read so many literary journals. I just love them. I try to write my stories just like the ones published. Obviously, I am still writing like myself too. But I do think all the reading I do is a big benefit.

    And thanks for your kind words. You're the only one on here who has read one of my short stories. I really appreciate it.
     
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  20. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Because I am trying to sell first rights, it's not a good idea.
     
  21. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    You can post excerpts or early drafts, though, without first rights being given up. There are also password protected forums elsewhere on the Internet where writers can post their work and get critique.
     
  22. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    It's just not something I feel comfortable with given what I have been told by some industry professionals.
     
  23. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    I can see why you might be hesitant about it on non-password protected forums like this one, but every professional I've ever seen has encouraged the use of password protected ones.
     
  24. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    They writer

    don't give us the 200 words of play, no pleasure, nothing at all.

    They cite it, the first publication rights on that prose, proclamations, real good stuff. Legend says the word comes in a black ink when they writer type it - deep in the zone shooting elephants. The magical pen.

    Forum don't even get dross, or chaff.

    So sad for the little people.
     
  25. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Well, if you're personally convinced your stories fit these publications to a T, just keep banging away at writing and submitting. You might simply be running up against a lot of competition, rather than something 'wrong' with your work. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your work, only that the people doing the picking preferred somebody else's that time around.

    Maybe also set a few other writing goals for yourself, so getting published in one of these magazines isn't your primary concern. That way you won't feel so discouraged with each non-acceptance, and will keep progressing.

    You could do something crazy like start up a publication of your own, and get people to submit to it so it's not just 'you' and your work, but a collection of varied work that's got something in common. You could put yourself on the writing map that way, and meet some fellow writers who are just as hungry as you are for publication.

    I know you have just got an MFA in Creative Writing, so is there anything there you could exploit? People you knew, fellow students, etc? Former instructors who might be interested in tracking your progress, or offer insight into the lack of progress, if that's what you feel is happening?

    I'm not advocating any of these particular projects, but just urging you to think about starting other projects that are writing-related, to keep yourself from getting despondent.
     

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