Religion-Demonology

What started this whole "thing" was the fact that parents shouldn't push their ideals on their children. Were your parents wrong to tell you a fat man in a red suit travelled the world giving out presents to children who behaved all year?

Enjoy your Saturday night out!

 

Since AV has left the discussion, I could answer that question. I don't think parents are wrong to tell their kids a fat man in a red suit comes down the chimney every Christmas. But when the parents tell their kids that they'll burn in eternal hellfire after death if they don't believe it, I think it's immoral.

You seem to be dodging questions yourself, erebh.

 

First off please don't suppose you know me or my beliefs, I haven't said once how religious or not I am. The debate is about a parent's right to bring up a child in a particular belief system

I thought I already did. Millions of kids worshipped Jimmy Saville, millions of teenagers worshipped Gary Glitter, Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, the list can go on. Look what these worshipped people turned out to be. Don't worship is good advice in my book.

It's a question of respect. People, and athiests in particular choose to take bible teachings literally without studying the text and making their won judgement from intelligent reasoning.

I'm not sure anybody's dying words were "Shit, I wish I had of worked more!"

Ok we'll differ, unless a child has been horribly abused, he should honour his parents

Again don't lose this in translation. Some testaments / gospels use the word covet and a synonim for steal - do not steal your neighbour's wife. While in others it is used a desire of the heart. She's is your friend's wife - leave her at that and love her as you would yourself. People can choose to translate/interpret.manipulate anyway they like - it's what we teach our children that matters most.

Again you are making jusdgements on my and my beliefs, pleae don't but yes; I pick and choose what way to lead my life. I would not teach my children an eye for an eye for instance but I would teach them to love their neighbours - what's wrong with that? It's called free will.

 

I find it hypocritical that you accuse me of making false judgements when I've clearly acknowledged that I may be wrong and am asking you to confirm my presumptions in the form of a question. Not to mention your snarky implication that I was a false-god-worshipping, parent-dishonouring home-wrecker. I apologise if I was quick to judge, but if you weren't presenting the ten commandments as some sort of moral absolute, why bring it up? Was it wrong of me to assume you were a Christian?

On the other hand, I would agree, for the most part, with not worshipping anything on the basis of blind faith and not stealing your neighbour's wife (if I misunderstood the translation). You say that atheists take the bible too literally. What is the model for distinguishing what was meant to be literal and what was historical or metaphorical?

And this didn't answer my question on how you determine whether a god is true or false.

 

Yep. I think the most important thing parents can do for their children is to teach them how to make good choices suited to their own beliefs. That's not the same as saying 'this is what we believe so you'll believe it too'.

 

I am happy to answer everything line for line

Well, I didn't presume you were anything - if you disagree that children shouldn't honour their parents or neighbours shouldn't steal their neighbour's wives what would you call it. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem kinda thing. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you aren't.

Excellent question, I'm not sure the Pope could answer. As I see it the bible (whichever translation) and that includes the Qu'ran is wide open for interpretation. It's not a rule book and was never intended to be. If you know anything about the bible you'll know it was compiled in the 4th century by Constantine the Great out of a collection of they don't know how many different books, some are still turning up today. It is meant as a guide, not an instruction to life maual or a dummy's guide to good living. To say you don't believe in the bible is not to have studied it, or at least read it or even skimmed over. There's a lot of good stuff, really interesting and some stuff you sit back and say no way - it creates debate, devides nations but it is all up to the individuals interpretation.

Again I couldn't do that, I would say however that no human is worthy of true worship - we all fail somewhere along the line. Having said that Ghandi and Mother Teresa spring to mind as exceptionally good people. Do I belive in God? At 42 I still don't know. Do I believe my children should be brought up with Christian values - absolutely! Do I drag them to church? Never have except of course for Baptism, First Holy Communion and Confirmation. Will I in future? No. Are they free to change religion at any point? Of course but I will grill them over their new found beliefs and debate every turn and if they still wish to jump ship, I'll tie on a life jacket. Am I wrong? A bad parent? Am I going to hell?

 

I don't get how that wasn't a presumption.

I'm illiterate when it comes to double negatives. Could you clear that first line up for me? I've already addressed the coveting issue twice.

I have read and understand that there are good things in the bible. However, it also contains a lot of immoral things. You and I may read it and have healthy discussions about it, analyze it and interpret it. But a LOT of people believe that the bible is "the good book" because they believe it is the direct word of God.

If you couldn't determine whether a god is true or false, how are the first two commandments even relevant unless we take his word for it? I would agree that no human is worthy of true worship. But if you think the God of the bible is, then you may want to read the bible again. Whatever your stance is, it seems relatively harmless and I have no right to judge you as a parent or if you're going to hell (I don't even believe a hell exists).

 

It was a presumption - either you think it's right or wrong or you have no feelings for it. If you have no feelings for it then why bring it up?

sorry, please change the word 'disagree' with 'think'

I think those people are called extremists. People who take anything word for word, 100% or nothing may need to examine themselves or rethink their situations. I thought that American Senator last week was hilarious. Todd I think his name is. For years he protested same sex marriage - untill his son came 'out' and within seconds he did a complete u-turn.

Like I said, even at this age and after studying the bible for quite a while I haven't decided if God in the book is my God or even real but if someone else wants to belive then let them. Why should be castigate them for it? In commandment no 2, God says he is jealous and won't tolerate another God in His place; so he has human traits as well. As writers we have to look into this, answer questions and question answers. Be philosophical not demeaning. Accept not what others believe but accept that people do believe. Like you say Religion is harmless so long as it's not manipulated for personal gain.

Over the years, all these so-called religious wars - were any of them ever actually about religion? My God is better than your God kinda thing? All of the bibles were compiled by Constantine, the same stories were chosen. The Jews, Christians and Muslims all came away with more or less the same book and translated them into the relevant languages. Some things got lost, some were added but they are basically the same. Written by men to control the masses but also to give them a good way to live. Of course some things were extreme, stoning to death for silly things but it wasn't exclusive to the bible 0 In Victorian England there were 222 "crimes" punishable by death - one for instance was for having a blackened face after dark - should we disband the law? Its all up to the individual and I believe people shouldn't be shamed or belittled for what they believe.

 

Hahaha, yeah karma's a bitch, isn't it?

I'm not proposing we castigate them. I'm merely agreeing with you that we should be able to question answers. Religion seems to give all these easy answers and when asked to elaborate, they seem to fail or fall back on "faith" as a reason to believe. I also said I thought your stance on parenting seemed harmless. Religion can be immensely harmful. Just look at aids in Africa.

Of course they were about religion or, at least, used religion as a justification for certain actions. These religious texts are extremely divisive and are no help in the progression for human equality. Victorian England was extremely different to what England is today. Laws should be questioned, debated, abolished and amended accordingly. Not to mention Victorians had strict "Christian values". I'm against bigotry and religious people should never be persecuted or discriminated against for their beliefs. A little ridicule, however, should be taken with a sense of humour.

 

I'm guessing here where you equate or connect religion and aids in Africa you are referring to the non-use or banning of condoms? Again extremism but if the bible is going to be taken literally then the extremists need to go the whole hog and not sleep around in the first place. But they are human, they will sleep around so they go against the bible then go with the bible and don't use protection - thats just hypocrasy and a bit rediculous.

Like you say - they used religion as justification. In Ireland the world believed it was Catholics V Protestants. They may have been different religions but they they didn't fight over translations of the bibles. Propaganda. When Christians went on the Crusades it was about power, it wasn't to stop disbelievers disbelieving, it was about incorporating one massive religion into a tax paying world. Money and power - religion is just the excuse, the justification, the conduit.

I'm glad we are agreeing

I'm sure Danish newspaper cartoonists will totally agree...

 

I'm closing this thread since it's gone so wildly off topic. I apologize to the original poster.