Reviews, critiques, and the Slough of Despond

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by Catrin Lewis, Apr 6, 2016.

  1. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    He had been a very prominent agent at least two other agencies that I confirmed and then went out by himself. As best I could tell he's made enough money and can be very picky about what he takes including saying 'My way or the high way'.
     
  2. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Some do. I think I came across two of them in my search. But most don't and from a recent thread by an agent at AW:

    Honestly, having come through the other side of this, I think those "how to write the perfect query" articles are the cause of a lot of unnecessary stress. You don't need the comp titles. You don't need a paragraph about why this is the agent for you. You don't need to be perfect. You just need to make them want to read your story.

    God knows if I can do it, anyone can.

    Edit to add: As for personalisation, mine took the form of "I saw you're looking for romances with humour [or *something* I'd gleaned from their bio on their website] and thought TITLE might interest you." Most of the time I had no idea what novels they'd sold because I was far too lazy to put that much research into it.

    In my 'winning' query, the personalisation was:

    I’m seeking representation for UNTOUCHABLE, a 97,000-word contemporary romance. I hope you will enjoy the humour and the smart exchanges between hero and heroine. [Her website profile said she likes 'dark, smart humour'] As requested I have included a short description, bio, the first 10 pages and a one-page summary below.

    That was it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
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  3. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    That's the thing I've always tried to focus on and why I dropped trying to compare anything. If an agent doesn't like my idea no comparison is going to save me. Even if I genuinely am that good a comparison to Salinger or someone is just going to sound disingenuous.

    They say don't give people a reason to say no and I think that leaving out this extraneous crap is a part of that. If people read my stuff and say 'Not for me' then I can live with that; what I don't want is someone rolling their eyes because they don't like a guy I compared to and flipping to the next story. I just want to talk about my story and not include anything else that might give them a reason to stop at that point.
     
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  4. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Totally sane approach, as I mentioned to @BayView during our exchange. It's a relief, actually. I wonder if the 'official' advice in the 'how to' manuals is changing. That's what I thought might be happening when I wrote to that agent to ask her to clarify the point she made in her column. Unfortunately, she said no—she does usually expect names of other books in the query letter. Horses for courses, I reckon.
     
  5. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Yeah, I felt providing comp titles was a bad idea, even though I'd read the same things as @jannert. If I imagine myself as an agent then seeing comp titles is either going to:
    a) Turn me off, if I don't like the comped book/author.
    b) Make me think "o rly? YOU think you're as good as Salinger?" and give me unfair expectations for the author's work.

    Two agents, including one of the ones who now represents me, compared me to another author (the same one). Neither of them needed me to point out that our writing is similar. Since they, you know, KNOW THEIR GENRES they could figure it out for themselves.

    Yep--it's so individual. I don't think many of them have rigid rules for what should or shouldn't be there as long as the basics are: genre, word count, a description of the book.

    And the problem is there is no one 'official' corner, although Writer's Digest would certainly seem like one of the official sources. Every article you read has slightly different advice and it creates a whole lot of stress.

    Actually querying was much less stressful than reading about querying.
     
  6. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    For me, this is the biggest part of it--- internalizing The Rules. So to respond to what @Mckk wondered about, it's not that I think I'm a better writer, when one adds up everything that being a better writer should mean. But I do fall prey to being the worrywart big sister who's trying to do everything right (dammit!) and wondering why the younger kids seem to be getting away with murder (which would make more sense, yeah, if I was the one who had several books out there being reviewed and read. But that's how it feels).

    It's a lot like the one time I tried to ski. Four of us college girls went out to Colorado over Thanksgiving break. One was a girl who lived in Evergreen, who'd invited us as her guests. Besides myself, there was a girl from Florida, and another who'd grown up the daughter of missionaries in Indonesia. The last two had never seen snow in their lives, let alone been on skis. So the Colorado girl tells us, "The first thing you have to do is know how to fall. After you get good at that, you can go on to the next thing." So I'm turning and falling, turning and falling, all down the damn mountainside--- and never got good at it. Meanwhile, Miss Florida and Miss Indonesia ignored Miss Colorado's advice and were sailing down the slope once, twice, three times, having the time of their lives.

    Now, I think I'm a way better writer than I am a skier. But sometimes I wonder if having The Rules in one's head just gets in the way of reading enjoyment. Funny, I seem to have this problem only with contemporary fiction. Analyzing why should be saved for another thread.

    Where it comes to my own writing, it's like I'm thinking, "I've worked hard to follow the writing rules I've learned. I've reworked my novel over and over. I've listened to critics and beta readers and deleted and added things. I've struggled hard to make my book really, really good. But here are writers who seem to be breaking all the rules, not because they're James Joyce or somebody, but Just Because, and they're getting five stars!"

    So my paranoid conclusion is either, a) They too thought they were following all the rules, but were so close to their work they didn't realize they weren't. Oh-oh. Could I be making the same mistake? As I think I said previously, it's always easier to notice flaws in other people's stuff. But I don't feel free to shrug and say, "Okay, maybe I have fallen short on all this method stuff. I'll just shove my baby out there and see what readers think regardless." I can't help thinking that if I do, everyone will notice and tear it to pieces. That I'm going to be held to a higher standard. The "younger" kids can get away with it, but I can't.

    Or, I conclude, maybe all any reader cares about is a good basic idea, and never mind how it's worked out. Maybe all this talk of The Rules is just us writers staring at our navels, and real readers don't care. So has all my effort to learn and follow The Rules been a waste of time? But I can't stop. Cue the depression and self-doubt!
     
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  7. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    @Catrin Lewis I get what you're saying (and sorry for going off on that query/agent tangent in your thread). I read a book this week that frustrated the hell out of me. The premise hit all my buttons and I was hooked but the execution wasn't great. The writing was competent in terms of SPAG but either the author is arrogant or he has terrible beta readers (or both) because it could have been so much better.

    But still, I read it, and all the time I was reading it I was annoyed as hell that I was hooked. It was irritating that somebody who doesn't seem to have read a single advice article on How To Write A Novel had written one that I couldn't put down.

    I got over it because I can see that although the premise saved the poor execution, the novel could've been a thousand times better in the hands of a different author. It may be tempting to think "well, I'll do the bare minimum required for it to sell and then publish it" but no, it ISN'T a waste of time to make it the best it can be. Am I going to read another of this author's books? No. Even if the premise sucks me in I'm not going to fall for it because I know the writing will disappoint me.
     
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  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Think of it this way. Forget about everybody else and what they get away with. Do YOU want to 'get away' with what you know is substandard work? If you don't care, then don't worry. But I suspect you'll want to be proud of what you've created, won't you? So work to your own standard.

    I hate to say it, but I think a lot of successful (judging by sales) writing, like a lot of successful TV, is geared to the lowest common denominator. I don't think anybody would argue that the most popular TV shows are always the 'best' shows when it comes to creativity, worthiness or thoughtful production. Some will stand the test of time, but many are throwaway. Some are produced cheaply, but are very popular and bring in lots of revenue to the advertisers and sponsors. So the TV industry keeps repeating itself with similar shows. How else do you explain 'reality' TV? Why would it be different for books?

    What sells sells.
     
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  9. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    The thing to remember is that there aren't really any rules, as such. A bunch of writers genuinely don't read anything on the subject, or decide they know better. Or don't care. Or are just kinda trying their luck. The only people who know about rules are people who take all this writing terribly seriously. Pieces are written by the hundreds evangelizing all the very many things you absolutely must do to get published; but all of them forget (or don't really focus on) the fact that what really matters is a good idea being written worth a damn. All this added stuff that gets hurled at you might make a good book slightly better but if an agent isn't immediately turned on they aren't going to change that because you (as I have seen seriously suggested in an article on a major site) use semi-colons because they are a sign of style.

    And this is why I really don't pay attention to it anymore. I don't care anymore. Of course I want to do everything I can to give my work the best chance I can but much of the advice is contradictory or vague or simply a matter of taste. I've seen so many articles saying 'you must tell an agent about your expected market segment and sales of books in that sector'. And then I saw a bunch of agents say 'we are agents; publishers tell us what they want and how well various things sell and we are in a much better position than you to know so please stop telling us'.

    There are no hard and fast rules. Just as I think my work is made better by ignoring some rules, other people make their work worse. Breaches of the rules don't make a thing bad, they're standing out to you because you've trained yourself to see them but that doesn't actually say anything about quality as such.
     
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  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Ah, here's a thought. Query letter:

    "Dear Agent Whoever - I see you represent Author Whatsherface who has written The Whatchamacallit, so you'll be relieved to discover that my novel is much better than hers. Unlike Whatsherface, I can spell, punctuate and construct coherent sentences, and have a reasonable grasp of plot flow and character interaction. I have developed my story beyond its initial killer hook."

    Think it would fly? :)
     
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  11. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    The fastest response I ever got to an inquiry letter was when I was actually honest about how I come up with the idea. It's a book about an addict working on a political campaign, an idea I conceived while working on a political campaign surrounded by hilariously inadequate people with terrible personal lives. I added a line saying how it was inspired by living and working with these people I saw the same addict personalities they just didn't know it; that power is this great dishonesty; a drug for people who don't know their addicts and that's the point the book is making. You can't trust politicians; they're addicts who'll stab you to get another hit of power.

    It took a little over nine hours for me to hear back that they weren't interested.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
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  12. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    My fastest rejection was 1 hour 45 minutes.

    But my fastest request was four minutes. :D

    Dear Author

    Please send me the manuscript post haste. In fact, just sign the damn contract.

    Yours
    Agent Whoever
     
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  13. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Bingo. Now I'll go write a book on how I pulled this off.
     
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    This is kind of the same thing I was trying to say in that "Is There Any Point in Trying to Make YA and NA Novels Good" thread you started a while ago. As I recall, that thread kind of went off the rails, but a point I could repeat from it is that "good" probably isn't specific enough to be a goal. If you want "good" writing, what does that mean?

    Writing with themes you can identify with? Writing with characters you love? Writing with beautiful prose? Writing that sells to a certain market? ETA: Writing that follows all the rules we've been told are important?

    Any of those could be "good" for a given person with a given definition, and "crap" for a different person and a different definition.

    Ultimately, I think "good" is meaningless in writing. Figure out your goal, and figure out how to reach it. "Good" doesn't enter into it.
     
  15. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    Things like this are why I sometimes wonder if I'm perhaps from a different species.

    If someone gave me an email that made me smirk like that then I'd sure as hell give them a chance. I'd notice them. I'd remember them. Someone who has some balls and a sense of humor and something more than po-faced disinterest would make me give them the benefit of the doubt, at least until proved otherwise. But even those of us who like to thumb our noses kowtow to the expectations of agents because success matters more than being a maverick. You need to be famous first.

    And it does piss me off. Because the first book I wrote is a comedy; it's almost a farce but even a dry reference at the end 'It's also quite funny' felt like too much. And that's the worst thing about all of this. Agents tell us they want us to stand out but we're human beings. We all understand that standing out too much is way worse than not standing out enough. Even stories that deserve to be presented as weird and dark and interesting we present as being 'just another book' because 'just another book' might sell to 10% of agents while 'dangerously different' might sell to 1%.
     
  16. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    :superlaugh:
     
  17. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    This, to me, is an example of lumping all agents into a faceless monolith, which I don't think is a good idea.

    First, did the query make the agent in question smirk? I didn't really find it that funny - I have a sense of humour, but apparently I don't have that sense of humour.

    Second, is humour the best way to work with that particular agent? Writing is a hobby for many of us, but it's a job for most agents. They're probably a bit more risk-averse and bottom-line-oriented than we are. That doesn't necessarily contradict point three, which is...

    You want an agent that "gets" you and your work. She'll sell it best if she truly loves it and truly believes it deserves to be on shelves. So if the agent doesn't get the humour in your query, you probably don't want to work with that agent anyway.

    Getting an agent is an important step on the path to traditional publishing, but it's far from the final step. We shouldn't focus so hard on getting an agent that we forget we need to get the RIGHT agent, the one who can sell our work where we want it sold.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
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  18. Tea@3

    Tea@3 Senior Member

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    Three things:

    Beware Paralysis From Analysis, because it can do a lot of damage.

    I actually LIKE it when I find flaws in published works, especially bestsellers, since in my mind that says maybe I don't have to be perfect either, to succeed too.

    I think a hiatus from reading others' work for certain periods may help you focus on your own work more, and also boost your morale.

    :superidea:
     
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  19. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Then maybe you are just being too perfectionist about your work? Think of it this way - the reason why you aren't getting 5 stars and they are may be solely because they pushed their work out there and people got to read it, whereas you haven't published yours yet. Can't get a 5 star review if it's not available to be read and reviewed, after all! What makes you think you wouldn't get the same reception? Yes your book isn't like these ones but then your readers aren't these ones either. You get my point?

    As for the Rules - I seriously have no clue what you are talking about there. If people are enjoying what you are writing, who cares about the rules? I can quite honestly say I don't know any rules except for the show don't tell one, and I don't follow it at all. I show when something needs showing and tell when something needs telling. That's the thing with rules on writing - they are valid only according to your intent and situation and the extent to which you may or may not apply them. In other words, it takes wisdom, experience, good intuition to actually use these so-called 'rules'. Which is why I just don't bother with them. I just use my common sense. Breaking or keeping a particular rule - if it works, then what does it matter?

    Anyway then maybe what you need to do is just have enough faith in yourself and your work and go push your baby out there :D no one will know you're not from the 'younger' crowd if you don't tell them! :D
     
  20. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Firstly, I have that problem with the mass of kindle books plugging up the literary pipes, so to speak. I mainly run into spelling errors, and a personal point of bitching doubled up words (i.e. was was, and and, you get the idea). As far as continuity I cannot speak on because I tend to find short stories to indulge in, so there isn't enough there to sufficiently take a casual stroll off a cliff. Don't get me wrong some are great little reads, but some are more along the lines of: Did you wipe your ass on a page and say, this is gonna make me millions.

    Sadly ebooks have given so many the opportunity to flood the world with a lot of useless or bad writing. Not saying my own works are the greatest thing since sliced bread and the electric toaster, but holy hell. At least I am self aware enough to know that I may never become formally published, but it is a nice idea. (I would be balling my eyes out at being such a hard working failure at writing, knowing that someone somewhere is getting their asswiped pages praised right this very moment.) :cry: But hey there still may be hope, there has to be right?:supergrin:
     
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  21. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    There's some truth to wanting to find an agent who loves your work but that's a luxury for people who have a choice in the matter. For the vast majority of people the agent who will accept your work is the right agent. For those of us who haven't been published; if we got an offer for representation tomorrow the choice would be between that agent and nothing. I might not feel that this is the perfect person for me but if they believe my work can be sold then that's a rather more substantial show of faith than anyone else has given me.

    We live in a world where most agencies won't even allow you to submit to specific agents. Even if I do a lot of research and find a wry, sardonic agent I have no way to know who is going to read my covering letter. Sure, I want to go to agents and agencies who seem to understand what I'm trying to do but those are not qualities they advertise and in the end I still don't know. Even if I try to be very picky I'm still going to end up with a lot of speculative inquiries because I simply cannot afford not to do that. The best chance for me is to get my work out in front of as many eyes as possible. Sure, I want to find as many eyes as possible who might be predisposed to like it but in the end I'll take 'more eyes'.

    Most tellingly; if my work has any hope of being sold at all then I have to believe that it would be of interest to some people who just pick it up knowing nothing about it. The ability to peak the interest of a mainstream reader is, in short, the difference between a book being sellable and it not. If it's so very niche that even a heavy reader used to literary work won't touch it unless they are my kindred spirit means that it's never going to sell.

    If the only people interested are also mad people that doesn't speak volumes to the market for my work.
     
  22. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I hear what you're saying, but...

    Getting an agent isn't any good if the agent can't sell your work. You know? Being an "agented writer" is bragging rights among authors, but it does you absolutely no good in terms of finding readers or making money.

    I mean, to a certain extent any agent who wants your book, assuming they're reputable, will probably want your book because they love your book. I don't think there's such a shortage of written material out there that agents are forced to take material they don't believe in! So if a reputable agent (one who's made sales in your area before) makes an offer, then, sure, that's a good offer.

    I'm just saying there's no point bending yourself into contortions, misrepresenting your style, or whatever else in order to land an agent. Having an agent isn't really your goal. It's just a step on the road to your goal, and the wrong step can take you off course.
     
  23. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    With the best will in the world; that's easy for you to say.

    I'm never trying to trick agents into reading my work but I think it's a bit naive to suggest that I'm not going to present my work such that an agent will want to read it. As opposed to, you know, not read it. A pitch letter can never cover everything so we have to pick and choose and of course I'm going to pick what I think will get the agents attention. It's not contorting anything to put the emphasis on the interesting bits rather than the not interesting bits. Nor is it misrepresenting anything to tone down or leave out the very challenging and explicit portrayals of IV drug use and self harming because that's stuff that needs context and character and a story to be more than just shock tactics.

    I bet there's an agent somewhere in the world who'd just love to see my work presented to them as edgy and shocking and all that but that's not most agents. Even if I can find that agent maybe he never even opens my e-mail. And to every other agent the dark nasty challenging bits are something I want to hint at to make them want to go find out what messed up stuff it's leading to.

    Having an agent isn't the goal but having an agent is absolutely critical to getting published and first impressions matter. Of course I'm going to use that first impression on the best parts of my work. I'm open to the idea that a different aspect might be more interesting but it doesn't matter what I do I'll always be presenting one aspect in that pitch.
     
  24. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    Me? Perfectionistic? Never! Bwhahahahaahhahhah! :superlaugh:

    Yeah, you're right. And I'll get the puppy out there as soon as I a) come up with a cover; b) get it properly formatted; c) figure out all the stuff I have to do re: ISBNs and all that; and d) get the rest of the feedback from my latest beta reader. I admit it, I was kind of tough on her, and she's being tough right back. Which is good, because I want to know where I'm screwing up.

    But the rules I was talking about (besides knowing when to show and when to tell) are things like foreshadowing who your perp is (in a mystery) instead of producing him at the last minute like a rabbit from a hat, and not relying on coincidence to get the heroine out of her ultimate crisis. Stuff like that.

    In fact, what I'm worried about in my book is that I'm explaining things too much.

    But to get back (somewhat) to the idea of reviewing and critique, the way my mind's working, I don't dare leave reviews. I wish we had seven or ten stars to work with on Amazon, because leaving three or fewer seems so dire. But if I'm constantly being pulled out of a book, saying, "Hey, where did that come from?" I can't leave four or five.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
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  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't actually think we're disagreeing.

    Present your work in its best light? Sure, absolutely. Present it truthfully? Well, yeah.

    The goal of a query is to get the agent to read the first pages.

    The goal of the first pages is to get the agent to read the rest of the book.

    The goal of having the agent read the rest of the book is having the agent think she can sell the book.

    The goal of having the agent think she can sell the book is having the agent offer you representation.

    The goal of having the agent offer you representation is HAVING THE AGENT SELL THE BOOK. Nothing before this stage really matters if this stage isn't achieved. So, absolutely, you need to jump through some hoops to get to this stage. But jumping through the hoops in the wrong direction does you no good.

    So, for a more concrete example...

    Let's say you write a query that represents your work as a joyful frolic through the world of politics! Fun! You're attracting an agent who's interested in joyful frolics (not an agent who's interested in gritty...whatever the hell your book actually is)

    And let's say your first few chapters somehow maintain that air of fun and fluffiness! Yay! The agent loves it and asks for a full! Whoopee!!!

    Except... unless you have a different book stashed in your back pocket the agent is going to read the chapters of your actual book and say WTF? This is not what I was reading. This is not what I represent. No. Go away!​

    Waste of everyone's time, right?

    So, I think we agree that you need to put the best spin on your book. But surely we also agree that at some point the agent is going to actually read your book? So, positive spin, yay! Misrepresentation? Boo. No point.
     
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