riots in Turkey

Well, I'm glad you're nice and safe though Madhoca. Heard they arrested something like 1,000 people (crazy) Also been hearing the protestors are looking to continue this in Istanbul tomorrow. Hope its quiet because it appears some people were several injury with those water cannons (one dead was reported last I heard). Keep safe.

 

Aw minstrel, lets not go to the dark ages of moderating and thought-police, with infractions being handed out like black dots to schoolchildren. We are all adults here and infractions should be given out for serious breaking of the rules, not like slaps on the wrist. WhatCrimson said was in domain of free speech, and you shouldn't be using your access to the infraction button to sanction it.

 

Whenever people make reference to Nineteen Eighty-Four I'm always curious to see if they understood that book at all. It's not about Oceania being a 'big bully taking your freedomz lol' it's about the mechanics of Totalitarianism, and how it warps feelings to make itself horribly appealing. The 'end result', the thought police and the oppression, that's just the surface of that novel, as it is just the surface of the 'Big Brother' regime.

Glad to know you are safe, I can't imagine what it must be like.

 

Turkey has been a country with an elected government since the 1920s, and we have women at the top of every profession, in parliament, in fact the second biggest university in my town has a woman Rector. It's not women's rights that are an issue.

I have no idea what on Earth erebh is talking about when he says "women were not allowed out" or some such thing. Let me tell you I have lived in Turkey for 30 years and I am a woman. What he says about women's rights and sexism is complete and utter nonsense and misinformation.

Turkey is also a European, not a Middle Eastern country--well, technically speaking it is "Asia Minor", in both Europe and the top of where I suppose you might say the Middle East starts if you stretch geography to the limit. Turkey has never had a period of "Islamic" rule in the modern sense. It has always given a haven to other religions. As erebh says, there are Christian--and Jewish--Turks, as well as other minorities.

The police are not any more brutal than the German or Greek police, for example, and it seems clear that they have been given the directive to take no prisoners and act with great force to stop any protests, or their own careers and jobs will be on the line. As I said, there have been a lot of resignations over this issue. The police do not want to do what they are being ordered to do.

Because Turkey is a modern country and a member of NATO there will not be death and turmoil as a result of these protests any more than the student protests in London led to the breakdown of society. However, people feel it is important to send the message to the government that although they have the majority of seats in parliament they cannot do whatever they want. The govnt needs to practice engaging in dialogue, which so far they seem to regard as a serious weakness, unfortunately. The protest wasn't really started by hippies, the protest was about the disregarding of nomal citizens' wishes. The trees were really the last straw, and the protesters are supported by most educated people.

It's still quiet here, but lots of people were hurt last night. It's very sad because this is usually a busy time of year at the universities and schools with kids putting on end of year shows and exhibitions of final projects etc. There's talk now of the final exams being put off--they start tomorrow--but that will cause all sorts of problems with the schedules and students who have arranged to start their internships in 2 weeks.

I hope the tension dies down so we can get back to normal routines, but also that the message gets through, that's my main wish from all this.

 

I've come across an image of some women getting sprayed in the face by a Cop on the 29th. Was going to post it, but for some reason the site wouldn't let me (might not have been a JPG or the likes), plus not sure how legit it was (2 days since, could have been played with) If it was(is) real, I'd be out protesting myself! This looks like it was at the park that was the starting point.

 

I said women in Istanbul were only allowed out once a week - to shop. This is completely true. Our hotel manager told us this when we asked why we didn't see women on the streets. This was also brought to our attention by hotel staff as well as staff in the bars.

Another fact is, my girlfriend was only allowed into 2 bars out of maybe 30 we tried to get served in, because she was a woman. There were no lady's facilities and no other women in any of the bars except for one very exclusive night club where some extremely wealthy women were as well as a belly dancer.

These are facts Madhoca so if you don't know about these situations please do not call me a liar.

And if you read my post again you'll see that I said woman nowadays are not treated any worse in Turkey than any other Western Society so I'll leave it for you to say you misread and you retract your words about my utter nonsense and misinformation about sexism in Turkey unless of course you don't agree and think sexism is rife and worse than the rest of the world.

 

The first...what can I say? "They were only allowed out to shop"... sorry, that is not "completely true" it is complete nonsense, sorry if that "hotel manager told you it" but NO. Just look at old films of Istanbul or other places in Turkey. Do you see women on the streets? Yes, they are everywhere, wearing modern clothes too. Swimming in bikinis in lidos on the Bosphorus, even.

The "bars" you mention must have been what are known as "gazinos". They are certainly not for ordinary women, even now. They are for prostitutes, escorts, and belly dancers to do their acts in. The nearest equivalent I can think of is a Working Men's Club. The women's toilets would be backstage, for the acts. However, there are, and were, other bars to visit. There are not all that many because young men and women tend not to go out at night drinking, or at rate they didn't until about 10 years ago. They prefer to go out during the day to a "pasthane" or cafe. There are decent bars if you really want them but if you don't speak Turkish or come from the area you wouldn't know about them.

It is a weird Turkish custom for a man on a date to escort the girlfriend everywhere, even to the door of the ladies rest room. It's just gentlemanly behaviour, like opening a door for a women. However, this habit is dying out now.

I'm not calling you a liar erebh, just saying you really don't know much about this topic, even if you have paid one or two visits to the country. Incidentally, not many Turkish girls go out with foreigners, and they are not all that typical of Turkish women in general. Your girlfriend should have known that those bars were not suitable.

 

You don't have to be Sherlock holmes to notice no women on the street all week, then Thursday afternoon there's an over abundance, and all with shopping bags. I have seen this - no wiki, no google, no youtube - eye witness. Istanbul 1990.

I think I'd know a brothel when I see one. There was no entertainment in these bars. They were full of men - just men and did not allow women in.

Not sure you know a lot about working man's clubs, I take it you mean the working men's clubs of Northern England?

You don't have to live somewhere to know how you are treated. The only reason we were allowed into that one bar was because they were 30 of us on that trip, 28 guys and 2 girls. I changed £500 and got back 1.1million Turkish lira, we all had wads and wads of this monopoly money and only because we flashed it at one greedy barman he allowed us in. The 2 girls had to sit at the end of the table and he brought over large screens. There was a big argument at the counter between the barman and some of his regulars over the 2 girls. Each round had 30 drinks, others more with shots so we won, the regulars left. There was one toilet and when the girls wanted to go, we had to escort them. There was only one other restaurant that also served us from all the ones we tried.

I have been to Istanbul 3 times; the first in 1990 and each time it has got better, and further down the coast maybe 8-10 times where locals are a lot more Western in their ways, especially when taking the Euro funnily enough. My brother owns a villa about an hour from Kusadasi and wenused to go up to twice a year.

She soon found out that 99% of bars weren't suitable because she had the wrong genitalia.

 

Working Men's Clubs in my neck of the woods do not employ strippers, prostitutes or belly dancers - but I think what modhoca means are that these 'gazinos' are like Gentleman's Clubs.

 

Exactly Lemex - that's why I questioned Madhoca's statement about prostitutes and working men's clubs

 

Yeah. Not until I posted did I think about adding a second sentence there, I'm assuming that they are more like Gentlemen's clubs. Sorry, should have added that when I first posted. Just didn't think.

 

I didn't mean that there are prostitutes in Working Men's Clubs in Northern England, I mean that gazinos in Turkey are almost exclusively for men, and not for men of "higher classes of society" unless they are slumming it for fun. That's why I didn't liken them to Gentlemen's Clubs, which operate an exclusive membership system for entry.

On the other hand, as well as being for men's entertainment, the women in gazinos are almost exclusively "hired women" let's say, because, I repeat, normal women do not usually go out drinking in the evening, not unless they go to the nicer class bars which are expensive. They have better things to do on a date, like go to out for a nice meal or see friends in their house. The areas for tourists, though, now have places for tourists to go and drink as much as they like.

This just illustrates the point that when foreigners try to measure "progress" they sometimes focus on irrelevant issues. Women's rights are not the issue here, citizens rights to be a part of decisions concerning their city's appearance and culture are.

erebh: the way you were acting, flashing cash, out with a big group, mixed men/women, do you really think that's normal behaviour here? And do you honstly think people's reactions to you were how they normally react to Turkish people? You have no idea, even if you have come here as a tourist, you are not part of the culture at all.

 

Don't jump the gun - I said the only reason bar number 30 let us in was because we flashed the cash - the other 29 we walked in as quietly and respectfully as anyone else. 28 of us were allowed sit and order in all 29 bars - 2 were not! Guess which 2...

And of course I am not part of the culture there, neither do I want to be although I did enjoy seeing it from my side, even if it was just to see how lucky we are on this side and before you start freaking the beak don't bother. You are content on defending your adopted country to the hilt and you have every right to do so. I did not attack. I said what I saw in 1990 and how that city has progressed. I took up for your people in this thread when human rights is Turkey's biggest barrier to joining the EU. I've always had a great time in Turkey or I wouldn't have been so often even when I saw at first hand the way your people are treated by your own govts and your own police. Check out old Turkish hooligan reports of Turkey V Ireland 1990, see how many Turks were arrested, battered almost to death before our eyes, over 2000! - then look at how many Irish fans were arrested - Zero. I'm sure many English people here will tell you about clubs playing in Istanbul when innocents were killed in literal blood baths.

Please don't make Turkey out to be a pillar of morals and human rights.

This week's riots started with a peaceful protest, your police force went in with tear gas, water canons, full on attack and now it's spread around the country. We just watched on the news, a guy crouching behind a barrier and a Police riot van steam roll straight over him, hundreds of citizens trying to drag him from under the wheels, horrendous.

 

@Madhoca, rightio. Has anything been happening today? (I'm away from a TV at the moment)

 

I was hoping things had died down a bit, but apparently there are more clashes starting up again now.
I've heard 2 of the universities are putting off their final exam week which should have been starting tomorrow. So far I've heard nothing about where I work.
As my teenage daughter said, the protests seemed exciting at first, but now this is getting more boring than normal life. Especially if it results in cancelation of the high proms, end of year recitals and so on. And the worst thing is, there are some badly injured kids out there.

Edit: my husband just came back from scouting around and said things were much quieter.

It's funny how people can't say anything offensive or negative about e.g. the USA but it's okay to make blanket comments about the "morals and human rights" of my "adopted" country (my parents are mostly English, but Levantine, so offshoots of the family's been in this country for about 300 years. It's true I didn't grow up here, I came in 1984, but still, if it's not my country, I don't know why not).

I haven't got any cause to particularly love the Turkish police, and I can see how they are being ordered to behave, but when I had my kindregarten her and had to get police reports I had a lot of help from them and the were perfectly polite and respectful. Also, they are having rocks thown at them, they are humans, not robocop. It's a sorry situation all round.

 

I'm glad things are quieter today. Hopefully the whole thing will boil over shortly. I've heard on the news yesterday that it seems to be about the authoritarian government but nothing else beside that.

I wouldn't try making the UK out to be either. Let's be mature about this.

 

For the record, I know the difference between Turkey and Afghanistan. I was thinking more along the lines of Egypt which also had a secular government and women had equal rights (for what that's worth in practice). But since the overthrow of Mubarak, the Muslim influence has become a much bigger political player and that may not be a good thing. Time will tell.

I know Turkey is not part of the Middle East. I used that description loosely, with consideration of the area involved in the current turmoil. I don't consider Turkey or Egypt to be the same as Iraq and Iran, and those countries are nothing like Afghanistan.


Thanks, madhoca, for taking the time to tell us more about your country and about women there. It's fascinating to me, but I also hope for a resolution.

I'm curious if there is anti-government sentiment, what are the forces keeping an unpopular government in power?

 

I'd imagine the same as the rest of us Ginge -has any country got a loved govt? I suppose crap, unfulfilled election promises is the biggest factor keeping them in power. I know that's the reason Ireland's guy is still in, and Monsieur Hollande too for that matter.

 

Nor I

 

Great, a thunderstorm has just started. I hope that keeps people off the streets tonight.

The trouble is, the protests are against a government which got in with a large(ish) majority (although no one in this city voted for it). The twist the PM puts on this is that he can do whatever he wants now, as he has "the support of the country". He refuses to enter into dialogue about anything, seeming to consider this weakness.

Damn, the pots and pans racket is starting up again.

 

Better than bombs and bullets

 

Sounds like shades of the Republican Party in the US. So many people were disgusted with the 2004 election results keeping Bush in power that the spontaneous "We're Sorry" images campaign took off on the Net. Finally now people can look back and see how bad the Bush years were, but we're stuck with the TEA Party that grew out from the Karl Rove campaign tactics. Then and now, and despite more general agreement Bush made devastating decisions, this country remains divided.

 

post deleted.

 

This is democracy: having lived in France for 5 and a half years I have yet to meet anyone who says they voted for Sarkozy when he was in power, or Hollande now he is in.