riots in Turkey

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by madhoca, Jun 1, 2013.

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  1. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

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    We see now the Turkish police are adding chemicals to the water canons. Protesters complaining of all over body rashes, inability to eat drink or sleep.

    RT camera's showed the police adding huge drums with the label JENIX and mysteriously half the local JENIX factory has been closed. The open half of the factory are just making innocent little air fresheners - RT cameras were then chased out of the company's offices.

    Also, tear gas and pepper spray in Turkey was put on the banned use of chemicals list in 1969 but is obviously being used left and right and centre now. I wonder if this is a UN or US red line of using chemicals on their own people?
     
  2. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    I will confesss, this stuff makes me nervous. That's because, as a gay man, I consider the spread of Islam to be the loss of social safety and civil rights for my people. Riots in Muslim countries present an opportunity for religious nuts - like the Arab Spring - to gain power. This is one of the reasons I oppose Syrian refugees coming to the US. My prayers are with you and everyone there with you that this riot gets resolved with minimal loss to human life and minimal loss to civil rights.
     
  3. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

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    'Your people?' You mean gay people? Are you concerned if Islamists take over the world, 'your people' will be exterminated? Wow!
     
  4. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    To put it in context, Muslim countries in which LGBT is a crime include Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, the Sudan, Yemen, Afghanistan, Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria, Uzbekistan, the Maldives, Egypt, and Lebanon.

    Muslim countries which carry a death sentence for LGBT include Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Sudan, and Yemen.

    In addition to these countries others, such as India and Pakistan have seen LGBT social safety and civil rights under attack.

    As Muslim immigration to Europe has increased, social safety for LGBT has significantly decreased.

    And I have a long list of links of Muslim immigrants threatening the safety of LGBT in the Netherlands.
     
  5. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

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    Well if Islamists conquer the world I think we're all f^^^^^d - there'll be no one safe under Sharia Law so chill out dude, it won't happen.
     
  6. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    Freedom isn't lost in one giant sweep, but by small slices as people mumble "it'll never happen" and roll back to sleep.

    I certainly didn't think ten years ago that the Netherlands would be as dangerous as it is now.
     
  7. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    "Islamist" is really too broad a generic term. Even the worst of Erdoğan's supporters are mild compared to Iranians, let's say, and they are nothing compared to Taliban types. We are mostly Sunni Muslim in Turkey. The worst types of all are radicalised converts to Islam.

    Don't worry Justin, there are plenty of gay men in Turkey. The only risk you'd run here is being loved to death :)

    The latest way of protesting is "standing man". The protesters just stand without moving or speaking for 5-8 hours. It's driving the police nuts.
     
  8. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    My albeit brief research indicates that gay sex has been considered natural in Turkey only since 2012 and honor killings (where family members kill a gay guy to absolve shame) are still occuring and not being prosecuted (see the case of Ahmet Yildiz).
     
  9. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    A scoiety may change it's laws, but there will always be individuals who lag behind. Mark Carson was gunned down in New York City a few weeks ago for being gay.
     
  10. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    Mark Carson's murderer will be prosecuted. Ahmet Yildez' murderer is still at large though it's known who did it.
     
  11. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    Well, gay sex has been a fact of life in Turkey for centuries, both for men and women, as it has been in most Muslim countries where the sexes are segregated. Gay sex does not seem particularly natural to straight, conservative thinking people in most countries to be honest, not just to Turkish people, in fact it was probably considered more natural in the days of polygamous and forced marriages. The gay lifestyle seems to rule out so many happy personal relationships and rituals. I've heard gay friends admit the problems themselves, no children being a big sadness.

    However, there have been many famous actors and singers in Turkey who were/are openly gay and no one says anything against them or thinks anything less of them. I haven't heard of the case you mention, but one killing does not mean that the whole nation acts or thinks like this. Generally speaking, gays are accepted as part of society but having a gay member of the family is not something to be celebrated--again, that's the same in most countries.
     
  12. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    What is the "gay lifestyle"? I've been asking for a manual, but nobody seems to have one. As for children, in the US, there are about half a million kids bouncing around in foster care. They need stable, loving, healthy homes. Gay couples can provide those homes.

    Having a straight member of the family is nothing to be celebrated. The question is whether having a gay member in the family is a disgrace. As for that one case, additional information (not just on that one case, but on statistical research throughout Turkey) can be found in the report, "We Need a Law for Liberation:Gender, Sexuality, and Human Rights in a Changing Turkey" by the Human Rights Watch. Another report by the Human Rights Observation and Law Commission on LGBTT (Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual-Transvestites and Transsexuals) Individuals agrees with it.
     
  13. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    I think it might help you to stop being so prejudiced against Turkey and look around you at how gay people are seen in other countries. On the one extreme, gay sex can be considered a criminal activity or "against the Bible", to the other end of the spectrum, there is gay marriage and gay couples can adopt children.

    Turkey is somewhere in the middle, not bad for a traditional, religious and family-based culture. Gay marriage and child adoption is not really an issue because marriage is mainly about children and setting up a home together within traditional roles, which rules out a gay couple, and adopting children is actually very hard: the couple must be married and over a certain age (something like 40, I can't remember exactly). There is no demand by gay couples here to adopt. On the other hand, a single person, man or woman, can foster a child or adopt a minor over something like 14 (again, I'm not sure exactly of the age but it's about this). The point is, adopting is not a substitute for having your own child for the majority of people. This is true anywhere in the world I'd say.

    The current protests are an indication of the diversity of culture in modern Turkey, which in itself should make you realise that it is not possible to paint the whole country with an absurd "Islamist" coating or use one isolated case as an excuse for labelling everyone there. Stop relying on second hand information and come here if you want to know what it's really like. As I've said, there are many gay people here and honestly no one give a hoot what orientation tourists are, you will be perfectly safe.

    As to "having a straight member of the family is nothing to be celebrated" well, is IS. I mean, families and family relationships are really important here. Everyone wants their children to have a good job, marry and have children--and what's wrong with such humble and wholesome hopes? How can a gay person fit into this picture? Of course it's a devastating blow for the family, please get real.
     
  14. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    And THAT tells me everything I need to know about Turkey.

    What I said and what these reports found is obviously accurate. I hope your country stabilizes soon so that Europe won't get a flood of Turkish immigrants.
     
  15. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    That is totally uncalled for, Justin. Give it a rest already.
     
  16. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    Your out of line, Wreybies. He said that it is shameful to have a gay man in the family and I'm the one whose comment is totally uncalled for?
     
  17. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    No, I am not out of line, young man. Madhoca is describing the slice of life being lived by him/her (I don't know the member's gender) in the cultural paradigm that he/she is experiencing. There are realities that are beyond this person's ability to change, realities he/she must live with. Your comment just now was racist in the extreme. How do you expect people to support your ideals when you are so militant and so ready to be offensive.
     
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  18. Justin Rocket 2

    Justin Rocket 2 Contributor Contributor

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    "Turkish" is not a race. It is a culture (it is also a nationality, but the relevant part here is that it is a culture). It is, by Madhoca's own words (which I quoted above), a very f'd up culture. There's nothing wrong with criticizing a toxic culture and hoping that it doesn't spread.
     
  19. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I'm closing this thread. Second thread I've had to close tonight over debating homosexuality.

    If we can't learn to live with our differences (cultural or otherwise) then maybe we are not as reasonable as we like to think. Just a thought.
     
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