Science and magic... together?

Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by tristan.n, Oct 31, 2011.

  1. Keven

    Keven New Member

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    Simply read my post above yours. I simply can disprove all the quotes relating to Star Wars.
     
  2. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

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    None of those quotes were relating to Star wars, they were to prove a point that there is a great dichotomy between various writers and their personal definitions of S.F.
    The force is an unknown unexplainable energy (dark energy) humans can channel this through the use of Midichlorians (Mitochondria) They're simply imanginative extrapolations of the known.

    John W. Campbell. 1947. "To be science fiction, not fantasy, an honest effort at prophetic extrapolation from the known must be made."

    Perhaps you should research a topic before you tell other people what to think about it, it's arrogant.
     
  3. Keven

    Keven New Member

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  4. JPGriffin

    JPGriffin New Member

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    My one bit of sense to throw into this Star Wars debate is the fact that almost everyone is referring to the movie versions, not the book versions. The movies can't explain it all, because they only have so much time to air and get the plot through. The book goes extensively into plausible sci-fi technologies seen in Star Wars, and while I haven't read through any myself, I'd easily consider the series a sci-fi because of that one source. The books are almost always the subjects anyone should look at, because they aren't restricted to a set amount of pages or a time limit, only the limit of the writer's ability. George Lucas didn't leave the science and technology unexplained, but for anyone who's seen only the movies they cut out a lot of details like so many other films do. I'm not sure how he defines the Force in the novels, but the technology is explained soundly, which leads me to believe that Star Wars is a sci-fi with a bit of fantasy built in to "spice it up."
     
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  5. Keven

    Keven New Member

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    They still prove the facts we have been saying.

    This was not done until Episode 1 and overal explain the many other aspects of Star Wars that are not?

    Why? I've seen the movie and know what it does and doesn't explain (research not needed). At it's core Star Wars is a Fantasy due to the lack of RATIONAL explanations.
     
  6. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

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    I gathered those in 3 mintues, and they're alot better than using a father who's a welder and two 12 year old boys Keven.
    How about you reference soemthing? I'm the only one here actually referencing.
     
  7. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

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    ^ anyone else get a sense of irony here?
     
  8. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    No I am not kidding, are you? All of those definitions are basically the same. They all point towards the same end goal: Science

    My point is this:

    You can have different definitions in the sense that they are worded differently, but as your previous post proves; yes, those are different, but only because they are not using the same words. However, they all mean basically the same thing. Also, if you really want to get technical, those quotes you posted are not definitions. Those are opinions of authors. I got mine out of a dictionary.

    How many times do I have to say we are not talking about the prequel trilogy? We have been discussing the original trilogy. If you are going to jump in the discussion half way through at least make sure you know what we are talking about.
     
  9. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    We are talking about the original trilogy only. And the books are not written by George Lucas. So we cant exactly delve into those anyway since we cant compare spin off books to the original films.

    Also, I have read many of the Star Wars books. All of them are about the force. With the exception of the Han Solo trilogy. However, those still are not about science either.
     
  10. Keven

    Keven New Member

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    Actually no your not. Just because a person is not a writer doesn't make them stupid or incompetent to say what they think and/or know. You not only made yourself sound ignorant with this comment you basically said: "The opinion of others do not matter, only mine does."

    OVERALL

    Plus as I have said already: "Star Wars focus is on The Force (all six movies). Will The Dark Side (the evil force) win or will good win? It's not about a heros who has to decide to join a military/technological faction, but a faction that uses unnatural abilities. Will Sky walker join the Dark side or not? Can he defeat the dark side? Why did Darth join the Dark Side. No matter how you want it to be Science Fiction the overal STORY and PLOT ALL point to THE FORCE!"

    I feel Star Wars is fantasy at its core, but refer to it as Science Fantasy as it is not TRUE science fiction. I thank everyone for debating, but I have said my piece. Enjoy.

    v/Respectfully,
    Keven
     
  11. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    So we were arguing back and forth all of today and got about 20-30 posts of arguing about this topic... I leave for one hour to go to the store and without me the thread still goes on for another 30 posts. I have to say, it was fun. I've run out of motivation to debate this anymore. But I appreciate that there are people out there that can stay on topic the whole time and not resort to personal attacks. I don't think I'm describing anyone on this forum, but you'd be surprised how often on like a sports or politics forum how fast things can get ugly. There is something to be said about someone that can disagree with you yet still be respectful.

    That goes for everyone on this forum really but Jhunter was the one I argued with on this topic the most so I'm singling him out.
     
  12. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    If you are going to use these forums you should refrain from being rude and childish. These boards are for civil conversation and to help each other out. We are all one and the same and are here for the same reasons.
     
  13. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I completely agree, it was a swell debate, and I as well thank you for staying on topic and not getting personal. It is not every day that happens. Most of the time people resort to personal attacks just like you mentioned.

    I will also agree that it is time to lay this debate six feet under. It will never end. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Keven

    Keven New Member

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    Arguing implies yelling, shouting, name calling, etc. I believe this was a debate.
     
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  15. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    Well TECHNICALLY....

    You know what? I learned my lesson the first time. lol

    *walks away*
     
  16. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

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    How is it rude or childish to state that referencing online essays is better than asking your dad and two 12 year old boys their opinions?
    That's not rude or childish, it's a fact. I thought you liked those?

    Lastly, due to the fact that the narrative is not in chronological order 4-6 is absoloutely fine S.F due to the explanations in 1-3. If you're a writer you would understand that you don't explain everything twice. The START of the text is when things are introduced and typically explained therefore 1-3's S.F elements are transferable to 4-6.

    But let's end this, I'll respond to Keven and then will no longer reply.
    It was a giggle.
     
  17. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

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    You're thinking of Hard Science Fiction.
     
  18. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Thank you for pointing out what we have already discussed and agreed upon fifty posts ago -- we have all agreed the prequel trilogy has science fiction elements. The rest of us understood we were talking about the trilogy that matters. The original. So again, if you are going to jump into the middle of a discussion, than discuss what we are debating.
     
  19. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

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    The fact that you're trying to separate the saga into two trilogies reflects how moronic this arguement is, and how we also are for letting it drag out this long.

    This has been a waste of time, neither of us is going to pay the others arguement any heed; let's call it a truce.
     
  20. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I'm of the view that all six of the movies are more space fantasy than anything.
     
  21. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    This was a debate, not an argument. And if you feel something is moronic than don't participate. Nobody forced you into the conversation. Perhaps in the future you should choose your time more wisely if you feel it is being wasted.
     
  22. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

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    My comment was edited before you posted.

    Also:
    ar·gu·ment   /ˈɑrgyəmənt/ Show Spelled[ahr-gyuh-muhnt]
    1.an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention.

    2.a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.

    3.a process of reasoning; series of reasons: I couldn't follow his argument.

    4.a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory.

    5.an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.
     
  23. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Whats your point? The definition of debate is almost the same thing. I would hope we all know that already.

    The popular commonly used characteristic nowadays of an argument is yelling and screaming and emotions running high.

    The deciding factor on this being labeled as a debate is that we were discussing this as calm adults. Well, at least we were. You on the other hand lash out childishly. So I guess you were in an argument. But the rest of us were not.
     
  24. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    Science is basically the formulation of rules based on the empirical observation of how the universe works. In a universe in which magic works then observation of that forms part of what science studies. And that's consistent with pretty much every magical universe I have read. Warlocks and Witches study the rules by which magic works. I've never read a fantasy in which magic and science were not combined. Even in the most magical of universes the basic rules of physics apply in combination of the rules of magic. Gravity still works unless a spell overrules it. Punch somebody in the face and it still hurts unless magic overrules it. The chemistry and biology of digestion still works unless magic overrules it. What you are describing is the normal situation for fantasy or magical realism. Of course it can be done!
     
  25. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

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    You mean how most people consider Star Wars S.F? Don't contradict yourself by going against definitions.

    Show me at what point I lashed out childishly.
     

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