Scrivener [Paid] 2013-09-14

I mean on screen. For example the text in your screen shot up above in this thread looks great. My own text looks like ****. I'm not sure which parameters I'm missing.

 

I downloaded the trial version of Scrivener a couple of days ago. While I'm in the middle of a life crisis involving my husband's health, and probably not really in a good frame of mind to be taking on new software, I found the thing incomprehensible and definitely NOT intuitive or user-friendly. I started the tutorial and had to abandon it because I felt I needed a tutor for the tutorial. I've been a wordprocessor user since 1994, and have always used Mac software (ClarisWorks, AppleWorks and two versions of Pages) so I thought this would be a skoosh to learn. It's definitely not for the faint-hearted.

I don't find it intuitive at all. And I'm beginning to suspect it's not really what I need anyway. It's not a replacement for a word processing programme, is it? What I need is another good wordprocessor, since the new version of Pages is apparently crap, and I won't be able to continue to use version 09 when I upgrade my computer to Yosemite/El Capitain, or whatever the OS is called when I get there.

I have been writing for nearly 20 years, and have developed my own system for organising my novel—which works fine. I don't need 'help' with organising. And yes, I can keep two files open side by side and work on them both at the same time, etc.

What I would appreciate is help with formatting a finished work ...and that's not something Scrivener does, apparently. It recommends that you use a good wordprocessing programme for that. (!!!) So I think I'll just try to find a good wordprocessing programme, and forget all the extra stuff.

I need a programme that will import and export in many different formats, which I do believe Scrivener does. However, so much of what else it does either irritates or confuses me no end. And what is this Projects thingy? What's wrong with just creating a folder, naming it for your book, and putting all the book-related files and folders inside it—research, timelines, notes, character sheets, chapters, old versions, new versions, merged versions, you name it? Works for me. And I suspect it's easier to back up individual changes as well, if you're just using simple, separate documents. If I've added a comma to one chapter, I don't need to recopy the entire project folder to register the change. All I need to do is copy THAT chapter document onto my storage media, replacing the old one.

And here's a biggie. Apparently you can't turn OFF the autosave function in Scrivener. You can choose how often you want it to save as you work, but you can't turn it off altogether. I explored this via the preferences, and nope ...no option to turn it off. I hate autosave. I save when I want to, and sometimes ditch a lot of changes and return to the original. I know I can page back through versions and pick the one I want, but that's a lot of faff I don't need.

I also discovered that moving my files from Pages to Scrivener will involve a huge amount of work, because it's not a simple drag and drop at all. It involves exporting, importing, etc. Every single document. Scrivener is apparently Word-oriented, not Pages-oriented. Not Scrivener's fault, perhaps, but it's a problem for me.

I'm not trying to discourage people from trying Scrivener, and I may continue to work with it to see if maybe my initial reaction was unfair. But I'm also looking into downloading LibreOfficeVanilla, which has got tons of great reviews as a wordprocessing suite. It's also free!

And LibreOffice has one fantastic feature NONE of the others have ...it is incredibly backwards-compatible. For example, if you wrote your novel in ClarisWorks, which stopped being supported by Mac way back in the late 90s, you can still open your old files with LibreOffice. Same if you've been a Windows user for yonks, and want to open a file created in an old Windows version. Sounds ideal to me. That's more important to a writer than cork boards, I reckon. If I write something today, I will be able to open the file and work on it again 10 years from now, without a lot of palaver.

Anyway—my two cents. I think if you're already a writer and already have a system going, Scrivener may prove to be a million-dollar bridge over a 10 cent river. And a bridge that's damn hard to cross, I've just discovered.

 

I found your comments interesting, partly because they echo my experience with Scrivener in Windows, and I was surprised to learn you're a Mac-person, because I thought that its Mac-centricity would see those with Apple products more at home. It seems I was wrong. But mainly I just wished to say:

• Scrivener is in many ways a wordprocessor that replaces what a writer is currently using
• I think expertise in Scrivener will see it an aid to productivity (though this could take a long, long time), and it can be customized to make life easier - with templates for example
• Yes, LO's backwards compatibility is a huge aid to me - I have files in WordPerfect, SmartSuite (this had the best wordprocessor I've ever used - shame on IBM for not developing it further), Word, and of course, open document format from years ago. LO did drop support for AmiPro files a while back, but I re-jigged my files prior to that.
  
• there are add-ons to LO that may even prove worthwhile to your writing.

Personally, I don't think any wordprocessor is adequate to the task of writing a novel, but others would disagree. Formatting should be straightforward, if you use paragraph styles in your wordprocessor and don't use spaces in lieu of tabs, for example. Sing out, if you'd like a little help or have any queries.

There are other (creative-writing) programs on the market, including oStoryBook which does organizing, but uses LO for your story chapters - a rather nice feature.

I hope your hubby's health improves soon, too. It's harrowing to have an ill partner.

 

Oh, thank you so much. You're the first user of LibreOffice that I've encountered. I plan to download it soon and give it a try.

One of the main differences I discovered between Scrivener and an ordinary wordprocessor is the way files are organised. I like to create a folder, dump the relevant stuff into that folder, and put it wherever I want to put it ...either on my desktop, or inside my main Documents folder, or wherever it needs to be. I can haul a single document out of that folder and keep it stored separately on my desktop as I'm working on it. Then put it back when I'm done. I get the impression that mobility is not possible with Scrivener.

To tell the truth, I'm gutted to be leaving the Mac wordprocessing software behind. I've used it exclusively for the past 21 years, and it has always surpassed my expectations—up till this latest huge mistake was revealed in all it's 'gory.' Pages formatting options have always been excellent, it can read files in Word as well as its own, plus HTML, RTF, etc. It's so easy to create a template to use for your own way of working. I just love(d) it. I'm hoping I can adjust to LO, or some other format. I really don't need another way of working, just a way to continue working the way I already do.

Once question about LO. I haven't checked this out, but do you get lots of leeway in naming your documents? I like to include the chapter number AND date in my named folders and documents. Will I be able to do this, or will I be stuck with a 10-character name limit, or what?

 

I'll probably write a longer response later, but for now I'll say this: I've used LO as a replacement for word for a long time,and it does pretty much everything Word does, but in a less visually fancy way. When it comes to fictional writing, though, I find Scrivener way better and often easier to work with (I'm on Windows, btw).
Something Scrivener does lack, though, is the ability to take out a single file and modify it externally before putting it back in (it's possible on Win, probably easier than on Mac, but somewhat time-consuming).

Also, @jannert, LO does not limit file names in any way. The only limit there is is whatever your OS enforces.

 

I'm in Linux, but I came there after Win 8 drove me out! In both OSes, you have I think, up to 256 characters for file names, including characters like slash ("/"). So you're in the clear.

As Komposten said, LO is kind of like an ugly MS Office (I prefer to think of it as an antiquated UI in need of fresh thought, but it is still very unattractive), but very capable. You can track/mark edits, insert notes, link files to each other, create tables, insert character, hyperlinks, frames and so on. These are some of the things that a writer might find useful. If you like outlining and can make sense of the feature, you could outline a document using paragraph (outline) styles, so you could create headings like Act 1, then a brief paragraph for each scene in a style lower in the hierarchy, and so forth. And you ought to be able to toggle "higher" paragraphs off and on.

I think I understand your preferred way of working, and guess that is partly why Scrivener isn't the right tool for you. And it is a pain bringing a work into Scrivener - I did it. Once. Starting from scratch it would be less difficult. But the folders in Scrivener act like the documents you prefer to create, except they're all combined into the one file. You can open two at once (I think), which may not be enough for your workflow. I work in WriteItNow and there are times when I miss being able to open multiple documents at once, but I've become used to it - it's quick and easy to toggle from one part of the work to another. I mentioned oStorybook (which should run on a Mac with Java installed, I think) earlier. I'd suggest trying it... after you've completed your current work, and are on your next piece - it's free and I think will offer the flexibility you require (with its facility to do the writing in LO), plus you might find it has a few features that prove valuable. Learning LO Writer will not take too long, but it may have Windows-centric locations of menu items and also terms. During those instances you might find it a little frustrating to hunt for what you want while there's something you want to get on the screen.

I'm sure you'll do fine, and if not, I'm not too far away.

 

No, Scrivener is NOT a word processor and to make good use of Scrivener (and to understand the genius of Scrivener) you really have to get out of that 'this is a word processor' way of thinking. I found this article interesting and although it might not make you like Scrivener, maybe you'll at least understand what it is and how to use it

 

Tools> Options> Editor. It's the little, blue italics letter A In the upper left-ish area. Click that, change the font, every new doc you create will use the font you set there. This affects only the on screen appearance, not the output formatting for the Compile function.

Assuming you're on a Windows machine... (Let me know if you're on a Mac. The route is a hair different.)

 

Though I understand what's meant when people say it's not a word processor, at the same time, it is, because all I do is hit Compile and it spits out this beautifully Shunn formatted .docx manuscript. That's it. The bit about using a word processor to finalize is just that, to make sure everything is where it goes. I've yet to find a Scrivener-compiled document where everything wasn't where it should be, how it should be. So to answer @jannert's question/statement about an ap that will help her format her finished project, yes, it absolutely does that, with bells on. Regardless, where Scrivener shines is in its organizational paradigm. If a person already has one of their own, this may prove to be a road-block. In this sense, yes, it is not just a simple word processor. Not in the least.

 

I agree with you on that point. I think the main reason people say it's not a word processor is to distance it from Microsoft Word, which I think is important if you ever want to make good use of Scrivener. Use it like you would Word, and it's hard to understand, hard to use and you'll probably scrap Scrivener after a couple of frustrated attempts. So, yes, Scrivener is a word processor as well, but as the article says, I think it's mainly a database and it's more helpful to forget everything you knew about Word before learning to use Scrivener

 

Yes, yes and yes. No need to sell me, just look at my avatar.

 

Haha I know. Looks like you sell Scrivener for a living! ...which by the way would be a noble way of making a living. Free the world from Word!

 

That tweaked version of the Scrivener logo comes curtesy of forum member @Jack Asher. He made that for me. And just to be clear, no, I do not sell Scrivener for a living. I am a faithful Mac user and MS Word on a Mac is just horrendous. Abysmal. The worst. I still use MS Word for my job-job out of necessity, but I would never, ever, evah use it for my personal writing. Also, I got right fed up with the whole "MS Word is the industry standard so that is what you must use. Sieg heil!"

Poppycock.

 

@Wreybies Thanks, I know about the editor options, of course. I think I'm just crazy, or maybe my line spacing isn't good.

@jannert Have to say, I'm surprised by your reaction. Short of a decent amount of formatting options, Scrivener is extremely intuitive. I've finished first draft novels on MS Word, Google Docs, and even completed large chapters and short stories on little notepad, but I have to say the best experiences I've ever had writing were on scrivener.

Scrivener is attractive. It has an editor mode, a full screen, and a compiler, all of which are lovely. I'm shocked you said it's not used to format novels, because as far as I can tell the compiler is fantastic. By far, the most important thing about Scrivener is the binder, as Wrey said. Yes, of course you can have chapters on multiple files (I used to do this), but having every scene sorted in a binder conveniently on the left hand side of the screen really allows you to become intimate in a way with your novel you could never do with a simple word processor. You can fly from scene to the next this way. Using scrivener is like standing outside of time, and seeing all events at once. Whereas with word, it was just the trees, with Scrivener, it's the forest (binder) and the trees (full screen). I'm going to also say that it feels so good to have that binder (and I also did say Scrivener is rather attractive interface) that I absolutely spend more time writing now than I did with word, simply because I enjoy it more. It's like working in an office with windows vs an office without windows.

 

I only played around with it for fifteen minutes or so but I didn't find it intuitive either. I don't think I'm its target audience though since I can't think of anything I need other than a Word document. I don't world build or create loads of documents on my characters. I have a plan (a Word document with a simple table) and my novel, and that's it.

 

You can change the line spacing in the same window. Look over a wee bit to the right of the blue letter A, to the other side of the U and you'll see that the line spacing defaults to a 1.0 spacing. I've got mine set at 1.2. Again, it only affects screen view, not Compile output.

 

Scrivener is a word processor, with other features to boot.

@jannert if you are just looking for a traditional word processing program, LO is definitely worth the download. I like it a lot.

 

@123456789

I'm actually not making this up. In fact, here is the direct quote from the tutorial. I admit I didn't get as far as figuring out how to format novels on the thing (I'm still struggling with how to import what I've already written into it) but these are their own words:

WHAT IS SCRIVENER?
Scrivener is aimed at writers of all kinds—novelists, journalists, academics, screenwriters, playwrights—who need to structure a long piece of text while referring to research documents. Scrivener is a ring-binder, a scrapbook, a corkboard, an outliner and text editor all rolled into one. It is primarily intended to be a first draft tool; although it is possible to complete a project that requires only basic formatting - such as a novel or short story - in Scrivener, often you will want to take your draft to a dedicated word processor or layout program for final formatting. Scrivener is intended to be a kind of “writer’s shed” for those of us who don’t have a spare shed.

Again, this is probably a wonderful tool for some people, but I don't think it's for me.

 

Thanks. I'll try it out soon.

 

@jannert I wonder if that is old tutorial text that was never updated? The compiling function is good, and more significantly, Scrivener now exports to Kindle and EPUB formats. I can't think of a good reason to take a first draft and export it to an e-book format, then try to do all of the formatting and final polishing of the manuscript in the e-book file. I've done it before, with books in Kindle format, and its a pain in the ass. Generally, you export a finished product to the e-book formats and only mess around with those documents to the extent there is some formatting issue that you just can't fix in the word process (rare these days, in my experience, but when Kindles were fairly new I had to do it).

 

I have to agree with this. I've read the same section Jannert quoted and it seems like antiquated verbiage. It's been there since I started using Scrivener way back when it was only for Macs. When I compile the manuscript, it's pretty much magical what Scrivener does in handing me something that's so perfect. Or, perhaps this verbiage is aimed at writers who are creating more complex projects with elements other than simple text. I can see how this would apply to someone creating, say, a textbook or something with images or tables or other sundry items that may need tweaking in MS Word.

 

I don't know ...again, I've not got that far ...but this IS the tutorial that came with the newest version of Scrivener, which I just downloaded a couple of days ago ...5 point something. Maybe they're just covering every eventuality.

I was easily able to format my book for Kindle (just the book itself - I haven't got around to cover design, blurbs or anything) just using my Pages programme. Damn. I'm really going to miss Pages!

 

MSWord and LO also easily format for Kindle. It's not hard to do at all. What I mean, above, is that once you have a Kindle or Epub format, you don't generally do a lot of editing of those documents (i.e. editing the .mobi or. epub file or whatever). You can, but it's a pain. So the fact that Scrivener exports to those formats tells me they're intending to produce a finished product. I don't see it making much sense otherwise.