"Self-published" is now one of the "Big 5" for e-book bestsellers (Forbes)

Discussion in 'Electronic Publishing' started by lex, Dec 30, 2013.

  1. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    And I thank you for that. I'm just getting tired of this coming up every time I ask the hard questions. If people can't respond to those questions without getting defensive or argumentative, then perhaps the problem is not with the question but with the answer.
     
  2. lex

    lex Member

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    Then please stop asking them.

    The alternative is that people will continue to feel driven away from the forum, and/or not return to it, and/or not join it at all, as has reliably and repeatedly been demonstrated.

    No other writing forum has this problem. This forum's not going to flourish, if it continues. It may not even survive.

    For the record, I don't actually think that's the case, but even if it were, it would neither matter nor affect the already-proven outcome, from the forum's perspective.

    If people get defensive and argumentative, they get defensive and argumentative.

    If people leave, they leave.

    If people don't come back, they don't come back.

    If people won't join (directly or indirectly) because of it, they won't join (directly or indirectly) because of it.

    The fact - if it were a fact - that you're right and everyone else is wrong, and/or the fact - if it were a fact - that the problem is "not with the question but with the answer", as you've worded it, doesn't change that reality.

    I'm pleased to be able to post such threads here, now, without getting them summarily deleted, but that isn't enough for me. I want to be able to post them without these arguments, as well, because I (and many others) find them tiresome and irritating. Yes - I'm asking a lot. I don't pretend that I have any right to - it's just what I (and many others) want. And if the forum will tolerate your behavior, there's nothing we can do about it but go elsewhere, where we can have such discussions without that irritation. Which we will. Exactly as we did before. And so will many others, and still others who are watching won't return, and so on. However much you might dislike and resent it, that's the way it is.

    Are you willing to stop the behavior which is causing that outcome?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  3. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Sorry, but the site isn't your personal soapbox to tout the supposed benefits of self-publishing, While there are legitimate reasons to choose self-publishing, deceptive claims and outright baloney to make self-publishing look like something it is not will be challenged.

    The site survives because it exists to help writers achieve their writing goals. Leading them to disappointment chasing smoke-and-mirrors hucksters is not helpful.

    I don't doubt you, personally, are sincere in your beliefs. Still, there are a lot of lies out there, and a lot of disgruntled writers who have taken rejection letters personally and are dining on sour grapes and bitter thoughts. Self-publishing remains a long shot for most writers trying to find their big break, compared with putting the same effort into getting published traditionally. And there are too many parasites getting fat off that desperation for an easier path.
     
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  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think writers need to be clear on the pros and cons of both sides. When you see the same people always on one side, over and over again, it's a good indicator that they have a bias and you should do some research on your own.
     
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  5. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Not necessarily. In my case, I don't have much to say in favor of self-publishing because the good reasons for self-publishing simply don't have any great interest for me. For example, I'm not writing a family history to distribute through the family's national organization.

    I don't post much about scripts or screenplays, either, because it's an aspect of writing I'm just not that interested in.

    But I DO care about deceptive claims that can and do leave up-and-coming writers broke and disillusioned.
     
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  6. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Weighing in as a mod here...

    I would like us all to take a step back and consider the fact that this is a newer area and new kind of conversation being allowed in the forum. And it is being allowed. I agree completely with @Steerpike that the pros and cons of each side are needed for any informed decision on anything. That's just plain good sense.

    What I'm not happy with is the immediate negative response this conversation (self-publication) and a few other newer facets of the forum are receiving that would seem to want to curtail the change that Daniel has clearly invested both time and money into accomplishing in the forum. I'm not happy with the fact that this conversation as a whole seems to need to prove it's validity to even be had. I can understand fully how someone who is interested in the concept of self-publication might come to feel a bit defensive, perhaps even to the point of offensive, when constantly being given the brushoff or frankly, badgered. If I were to enter into, say, the Western sub-forum of the Short Story area or the Poetry section and start telling members who had posted their work there that they were wasting their time even bothering to put pen to paper because no one is buying that stuff, I ask you all, just what would that make me?

    The forum is changing. Not everyone has to like all of it. There are a few bitter pills I myself had to swallow in these changes, but in choosing to stay, I have chosen to swallow them, because there is so much more that is great that the odd bitter pill is a minor nuisance.

    I'm not telling anyone what they can and cannot say. I am telling everyone that I stand behind the changes for greater latitude in topic and conversation related to writing and the industry surrounding it that Daniel has chosen to embrace. It's the right choice. It will grow the forum.

    Just a bit ago I had a thread reported to me from a member who posted about specializing in creating book covers and wanting to offer her services. I saw her book covers. They're pretty damned good. I had three members report the thread as spam and not one member guide the person to the Resource area. That makes me really sad. That member and her services are something that is part of our ever changing paradigm as writers, but no one embraced her because of dynamics that have held for far too long.
     
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  7. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    To be fair, I thought we weren't supposed to reply to threads if there was any question. The mods have the ability to look for questionable addresses and the rest of us don't. When the first post is: this is what I sell, I don't see a tragedy in letting a mod check it out first.

    I, for one, have supported being able to promote our work, be it a book we publish (because one day I hope to tell you all about mine :) ) or some other writing related resources. Others have objected that it leads to trouble. I've had someone afraid I would take it wrong they posted a link to their blog in a PM. It was silly, people should be able to say, I posted this in my blog, what do you think? I think they can in the right sub-forum, but I was not bothered in the least that the person discussed their blog in a conversation.

    Anyway, don't misunderstand the reports without considering the people reporting might have thought they were suppose to.
     
  8. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    The site rules do still prohibit advertising. The presence of the Resources area has muddied the waters somewhat, but joining to advertise one's own product or service is not a gray area. I was one of the ones who reported that member, and I stand by that choice.
     
  9. lex

    lex Member

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    Well, maybe it's a good thing to have some of this discussion in public, though I originally thought it probably wasn't, from Daniel's perspective ...

    This ludicrous characterisation of "the good reasons for self-publishing" very neatly illustrates the problem, here. I'm still here (and large numbers of other people are considering still being here) because Daniel has assured us that you no longer have the power to delete our posts, Cogito, and that you won't ever again - but if you're going to "heckle" us offensively at every turn, that assurance still isn't enough for us. Your behavior is still damaging the forum's prospects by driving members away. (Did you think I wasn't going to say it openly? I wasn't, until you weighed back in to the conversation with a further expression of your ill-informed and malicious prejudice).

    I'm very grateful to you for that.

    And even that observation, in itself, throws some light on the problems here: it shouldn't need expressly to be "allowed" in the forum. It should never have been "disallowed" and it was greatly to the detriment of the forum (as was seen) that it ever was. The forum has to recover from that.

    Large numbers of people agree with you about that.

    They're not all mouthy chicks like me who are willing to rejoin and post publicly saying so, perhaps, but I think that Daniel (and maybe yourself?) know who many of them are.

    Indeed. Exactly so.

    That isn't acceptable. It's unnecessary and unpleasant and irritating and it has and does and will drive people away.

    Thank you.

    I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm certainly defensive. But this isn't the forum for me if I feel I can't ever discuss self-publishing (and that's something done in only a tiny proportion of my posts!) without every thread on the subject rapidly becoming tiresome and irritating because of the never-ending expressions of people's malicious prejudices.

    I thought that changes of staff and changes of policies would resolve that.

    They haven't.

    More is needed.

    A forum troll who drives members away (until you were warned and eventually banned?!).

    But not enough to attract and retain the members it needs.

    Sorry.

    In theory, perhaps. In reality, it hasn't. Perhaps it was "too little, too late".

    That's one of the reasons why my inbox (if they're still called "inboxes" now that "private messages" have become "conversations"?) is once again bursting with thanks and support for the stance I take, just as it was in the summer of 2012 when I objected to my posts so regularly being deleted by actions which I and others (including some moderators!) then saw as those of a "rogue mod". Some of those people left the forum then and have never returned. I have no way of contacting them and can do nothing about that. And that's also one of the reasons why I'm unashamedly and openly going to put the question to Cogito, right here: are you willing to modify your behavior, here? It's a "yes" or "no" question.
     
  10. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Umm ...I'm coming out of my popcorn status here for a moment. I have no objection whatsoever to self-publishing or any other writing-related topic being discussed in the proper place on this forum. Indeed, self-publishing is a new and potentially very popular way to get your writing in front of the public.

    I'm not promoting it, and do agree with people who have said you need to be CAUTIOUS about jumping on every self-publishing bandwagon that rattles past, claiming it will take you where you want to go. There are lots of people out there wanting to make a profit (as in make money) off people's desperation to get published. They are not all reputable, and some are downright scams.

    However, I also know at least two people personally (not on the forum) who have self-published recently, have sold books to strangers, and are quite happy at the way things are going for them.

    As one of them said, if you submit to traditional publishers, most of the work you do is in getting them to look at and maybe take your work. Once they agree to take it on, then they do the promotion, etc, and you can sit back and relax.

    If you go the legitimate self-publishing route, then it's easy to get your work 'out there,' but then YOU have to do the work to promote it and get people interested in buying it. It's the same amount of work either way. Self-publishing is not a magic wand that will make you a millionaire.

    I think these topics are well worth discussing. I also think it's perfectly okay to question sources, when claims are being made as to sales figures, etc. I feel that people who are on firm ground don't usually object to the questions being asked, and should be ready to defend their position with facts and arguments that back up their claims.

    I've been a forum member since early March of 2013, and really love it here. I've found plenty to agree with and to disagree with, plenty of people I like a lot, people whom I'm not quite so fond of, etc. In short, it's like any other gathering of people. Some folks will suit you, some won't. I think the mods here do a great job of keeping things flowing, and only stamp down hard on discourtesy or bullying behaviour. Disagreement is neither—unless the participants start getting personal and engaging in name-calling etc. Or go off in a huff the moment somebody says something they don't agree with. As long as people stick to the topics and remain firm, but calm, we're fine.

    I must say, constantly threatening to quit the forum because you've encountered people who don't agree with you here is a bit ...well ...counter-productive. Better to stick around and present your arguments in a way that may persuade people to your point of view? And realise that nobody ever gets 100% agreement on anything!

    Back to the popcorn. And Happy New Year to everybody. Hope you all have a wonderful writing year.
     
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  11. lex

    lex Member

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    That's not at all a fair representation of my position. Respectfully, you haven't been here long enough to know the whole background and story, here, which is briefly alluded to in my post above. :)

    This paragraph from the moderator's post above may help you to appreciate the point ...

    There's real trolling still going on here, and there's a very long history of it which has cost this forum very, very dearly.
     
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  12. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    The Forum Rules are under current review for revision because a number of them reflect prior incarnations of the forum, do not embrace the greater latitude we now have, do not take into account the Resource Area, and some of them are insufficiently encompassing.

    I've put it on my timeline, I've posted threads about it, I've made it my "status". If I need to write it on my body and post a naked picture of myself, perhaps that's what's needed. If it's related to writing, then it's NOT SPAM. Members like the aforementioned and her services are things we should be attracting to the forum, hands we would should be reaching out to other related communities, to create bridges and connections, not running them off.
     
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  13. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I think perhaps we all need to look at the forum as it is now, not as it was then.

    I certainly haven't seen any trolling since I joined, at least none that didn't get immediately snuffed. I also don't consider anyone who has responded on this particular thread to be a 'troll,' either, as they've all contributed very positively on other threads.

    You may have been around before me, but I've been around constantly since March—and I do think things have changed for the better, given what you said about the past. Which, by the way, I'm not questioning!

    I have no desire to misrepresent your position, but like yourself, I also have a right to state things as I see them, as long as I remain courteous. Which I intend to remain.
     
  14. lex

    lex Member

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    Sometimes an awareness of the past (especially when it's been as extraordinary and unusual as what happened here) helps to interpret the present. ;)

    Nevertheless, you did - and rather strikingly.

    But never mind: I pointed it out and explained it enough to clear that up, I think. :)

    What were your thoughts about the meaning and importance of the paragraph from the moderator's post which I quoted, just above?
     
  15. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    @lex - I'm sure there is trolling on this forum—there always is on any forum—but the mods seem to nail it pretty fast when it appears. I felt that the questions you were asked regarding your original post were perfectly legitimate, regarding the source of your data—indeed, I was interested in reading the answer because I was thinking the same questions myself. I do feel you (and others) took a bit of a hump, at these questions having been asked at all—perhaps because of what happened here in the past.

    I'm only saying we all need to look at the forum now, not at what is was in the past. If you feel you're being attacked by 'trolls' now, then report them to the mods and ignore what they've said. I have confidence our mods won't put up with trolls. Trolls hate being ignored, btw. It's the worst thing you can do to them! Breenge right over their remarks as if they had never been made—and they'll be biting at their scabby arms and moving on, PDQ.

    Just be careful not to mistake a genuine question and/or opposition to your point of view as always coming from a troll. As I said before, I am not opposed to self-publishing; in fact I am seriously considering it for myself. I'm one of those people who probably does agree with your point of view, although I, too, wanted to know more about where your figures came from and what they actually represented. I think that's fair enough.
     
  16. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    What problem - people asking questions to get the facts instead of blithely accepting what someone says? If you really believe that, you have not been on enough writing forums. One of the biggest also has one of the most active SP areas online, with a great many authors who have self-published or SP and trade pubbed. And the only ones who get their underwear in a bundle over there are the ones who take an attitude when asked the same hard questions about SP as are asked about other methods of publishing.

    No. If SPs want to take their ball and go home because they're expected to play by the same rules as everyone else regarding articles linked to and statements made, then so be it. Self-publishing has every right to be discussed here and should be discussed here - but that's quite different from making it a sacred cow.

    If that article had not been about self-publishers, but about some indie publisher, wouldn't you want to know the answer to those same questions before submitting to them? I would. But I prefer going into any business venture with my eyes wide open.
     
  17. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    wrey:
    does this mean i am now allowed to mention in my posts [when appropriate] that i provide fee-based writing services, in addtion to free mentoring?

    is it also allowed to add that info to my sig?

    [OT but important: why is the reply box 'yellowed' again and missing all the text options?... is it only for me, or do others see it like this, too?]
     
  18. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Allow me to be crystal clear about this with everyone, not just you Maia. Things like that of which you speak are meant for the Resource Area. Therein, they are perfectly appropriate, encouraged, requested even. I don't know why you haven't already made one, Maia. :) I talk about it all the time. Click my Ganesh avatar and you'll see that it's been my "status" for some time now. I'm hoping to get Daniel to make more of the Resource categories have chat capacity so you can actually talk with members, in the Resource Area, about this kind of thing.

    If a new member comes in and posts a thread like the one that's sparked this (rather off-topic, sorry @lex) conversation, I will still eventually remove the thread, and if I see it first, I will of course send the member my standard PM as to how to use the Resource Area and that we're not turning them away or banning them if it's related to writing, just that this stuff goes over there. If other members see it before me, what I would like is for them, instead of reporting it as spam, or posting a mournful warning of imminent banning, to direct the member to the correct place, make them welcome, not scare them off before I've had a chance to speak to them.

    The waters are not muddied as someone said earlier. We have a place for this stuff now. I will be regularly mentioning the Resource Area as a source of great information, contacts, and of course resources in the coming year. Y'all are going to get sick of me talking about it. I will be reaching out to other communities to open paths of conversation and actively asking these folks to come and share with us in our Resource Area. If they make the mistake of opening a thread instead of a Resource, that's not a felony, it's a technicality.

    This response is much bigger than your original question, Maia, I know this, so please don't feel remonstrated personally, I just want to make this clear to those involved in this thread as a whole.
     
  19. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I do hear you, Wrey. My own understanding was that advertising was still prohibited, and that was not going to change. I won't pretend I am in favor of allowing writing-related ads, but if that's the official policy, I'll live with it. I still think it will come back to bite the staff. I've seen quite a few scams and sketchy offers disguised to look appropriate for the site, and that is why I pushed for the full no ads policy in the first place.
     
  20. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think your views on self-publishing are simply outdated and haven't kept up with the times. It's a viable alternative for a fiction writer, so long as it is approached in an informed manner with reasonable expectations.

    I have self-published a fantasy of just under 10,000 words on Amazon. So far, I've made a little more than double what I would have been paid from a professional-rate market like The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction for a story of the same length. So it doesn't seem a bad alternative, given twice the pay for the same amount of work.

    I'll be doing a lot more with SP in 2014 and keeping track of how things pan out, for good or ill.
     
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  21. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I agree with you on this, but my objections generally have to do with the bolded part. Getting the book in a distributable form is the easy part. Making it easy for readers to obtain is also easy. Bringing potential readers' attention to it is a different ketchful of carp. So are dozens of details that are a matter of course for established publishing houses, with resident experts. The self-published author can learn them one by one, but it won't just fall into his or her lap.

    Self-publishing takes a lot more work and study than most newcomers think. It isn't something that can be dashed off once the manuscript is done. It's another entire phase of work.

    Certainly, even traditional publishing require additional work by the author - book signings, promotional tours, etc. With traditional publishing, you will have expert guidance and resources. But you still can focus most of your effort on writing.

    Too many of the blogs and articles promoting self-publishing gloss over the fact that there is so much more to it than running a conversion and registering the result with a distribution channel. Reasonable expectations are downplayed.
     
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  22. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    But that doesn't mean that people are unaware. I genuinely do not think that other than 10 year olds (sorry 10 year olds, no offense), that people think they are going to upload to Amazon and be the next Anne Rice come the end of the week. Do we sit here and bemoan, belabor, rehash, and constantly caveat every statement we make with the fact that in traditional publication, getting your novel accepted is less likely than getting into a car accident? We don't. Who wants to hear that all day? Not very motivational. It's a fact, and we downplay the bajinkies out of it. How is that different?
     
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  23. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    When I think Resources, I think more of areas one can look to for information links, not necessarily services. May I propose a separate forum labeled as 'classifieds,' where editors, cover artist, ghost writers, etc. may post their skills?
     
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  24. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    What I am doing is directing those kinds of services all to the Freelance Services category within the Resource Area, to keep them together and out away from the forum proper, which is intended for talk concerning one's actual writing.
     
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  25. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    It was just a suggestion as I had seen it on other boards. It helped to make things as clear as possible, and the keep the workload off the mods by avoiding those pesky meandering threads.
     

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