Self Publishing vs Publishing

Discussion in 'Traditional Publishing' started by BlackBird, Dec 31, 2012.

?

Published vs Self Published, which is better

Poll closed Mar 31, 2013.
  1. Published - Professional

    21 vote(s)
    52.5%
  2. Self Published

    6 vote(s)
    15.0%
  3. Neither

    13 vote(s)
    32.5%
  1. swhibs123

    swhibs123 Active Member

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    If you're self publishing b/c you think it's the least expensive option, you. are. doing. it. wrong!!! Self publishing SHOULD NOT be cheap. It should cost you money. You are the publisher. You should spend money making the product a professional one, the same way respected publishers spend money on their products. If you're not a graphic artist, or experienced cover designer, you should not design your own book cover. Your buddy who's a non-fiction book editor is not the right person to edit your novel. And yes, you need an editor. One experienced not just in fiction (if you're writing a novel), but someone experienced in the specific kind of fiction you're writing. I don't care who you are, or how wonderful your skills are, you need an editor. Good editors are not cheap. Your high school/college/university English teacher is not a sufficient editor.

    The cheapest route to publication is the agent to publisher route.

    That's nothing against self publishing. I actually have a great deal of respect for self publishers. But only the ones who actually care about what they're doing. Some people do a marvelous job, and create very professional products that show they respect the readers they're trying to connect with. But those people spend money on their books.
     
  2. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    excellent points!

    keep in mind that the money you spend on editors/illustrators/promotion/whatever in self-publishing your work has little to no chance of ever being recouped from book sales... and good professional editors do not come cheap... even at the heavily discounted rates i can charge, since i don't have to do it for a living, a full book edit just for typos and minor grammar goofs will be well in the hundreds and into 4-figures, if rewriting is needed... so, when taking this route, you need to be able to flush all that money down the loo with no regrets...

    on the good side, a comprehensive edit can help improve your writing skills for future books, having shown you what you're not doing as well as you need to...
     
  3. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    My beef with self-publishing is when it is touted as an inexpensive, easier alternative to traditionally publishers. It's like a get rich quick scheme, with all sorts of opportunists ready to take "just a little" of your money to make the process a bit smoother.

    The thing is, self-publishing bears very little resemblance to traditional publishing. You won't become a best seller, despite the hype about a handful of extraordinarily lucky exceptions. It won't be free, even though you can get your manuscript turned into en ebook at little to no cost. That's only a very small part of publishing.

    Beware of hucksters trying to equate self-publishing with traditional publishing. The very absence of a submission/approval process forever separates the two. When anyone can do it without difficulty or talent, there will always be a sea of garbage concealing whatever bits of quality is mixed in.

    I do recognize that there are legitimate reasons for choosing self-publishing, mostly for where you have a predefined limited distribution in mind. But I will continue to oppose bullshit claims that it the New Way to publishing Nirvana, spread by those whose pockets are fat with profits at the expense of gullible hopefuls.
     
  4. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    And that's precisely what one should do - point out the bullshitters. That doesn't mean equating all self-publishing with vanity publishing, for example. It does mean pointing out when the hucksters are mis-stating facts about either self- or trade publishing, or when the services they're offering are rip-offs. That's what helps people who want to self-publish, or who are considering it - and they are fellow writers, after all.
     
  5. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    You won't become a best seller in trade publishing either, despite the hype about a handful of extraordinarily lucky exceptions.

    The majority of trade-published authors make a few thousand dollars, then quit when they realise what a lousy return on investment writing is. Or their publisher drops then because their book sales are declining rather than increasing.
     
  6. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    This is disingenuous. The only viable route to becoming a bestselling author, or any author known to the general readership of a genre, is traditional publishing. The exceptions I refer to are exceptionally rare ebven among the set of widely read authors.

    Let's not indulge in word games to defend deceptive practices.
     
  7. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    You have facts or figures to back that up? Particularly the part where they "quit when they realise what a lousy return on investment writing is". I just personally have not read of or heard any trade published author state this as a reason to stop writing or publishing. Most seem to understand that writing is not a career one should plan on to support oneself, but that's in general, not just based on publishing route.
     
  8. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    You have facts or figures to back that up?

    I don't disagree with your point, but you can't dismiss his case for not having details and then make a similar claim of your own.
     
  9. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    Best-selling trade-published authors are no less exceptional than best-selling self-published authors.

    If you want to be the next Stephen King, yes, you have to do it through trade publishing. But the odds of a new trade-published author becoming the next Stephen King are no better than the odds of a new self-published author becoming the next Hugh Howey. Basing decisions on incredibly rare exceptions is a bad idea.

    Who's doing that?
     
  10. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Re-read my statement = most seem to. That obviously leaves it open to correction or discussion. Now re-read Edward's statements - those are presented as fact. Present something as fact, I want to know where it came from.
     
  11. Edward M. Grant

    Edward M. Grant Contributor Contributor

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    In America, there are perhaps a few dozen best-sellers of the Stephen King variety. There are a few thousand mid-list writers making a living from their writing, though many are now complaining about publishers no longer showing as much interest in their books and declining advances when they sell one. There are something like 150,000 new trade-published books released in a typical year, though I'm not sure whether that's just fiction or includes non-fiction too. Even if only half are fiction, that leaves an awful lot of writers who publish one or a handful of books and then vanish; they're the rule, not the exception. The vast majority of authors on my book shelf haven't published a book in years.

    As for return on investment, if you spend a thousand hours writing a book for a $5,000 advance, you're earning less than minimum wage. Most people won't do that for long.
     
  12. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Again, you're making statements of opinion/conjecture without backup. What do you mean by "of the Stephen King variety"? Horror writers? Prolific writers? Immensely successful writers (who took as long to get there as King did?) According to UNESCO there were over 362,000 new titles/editions published in 2012. That's a bit more than 150,000. And just how representative of the book industry are the books on your shelf?

    You're earning less than minimum wage if your book doesn't earn out; if it does, you also get royalties. And maybe your opinion that most people won't do that for long is correct - but most writers I've spoken to seem to think it's worth it.
     
  13. GhostWolfe

    GhostWolfe New Member

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    Admittedly, I'm not willing to devote a huge chunk of time to this - after all, I have writing to do - but my early research turns over a wealth of articles, essays, & books on why your shouldn't expect to live off your writing & what kind of income you can expect (though none of these latter articles seemed to be current). However, the only references I can find to authors stopping writing all refer to writer's block, no mention of money at all.
     
  14. Screams of Silence

    Screams of Silence New Member

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    Wow, I knew I was woefully ignorant on publishing, but holy goodness I didn't know it was THIS bad lol.

    I figured hiring an agent would be expensive and that self-publishing would be the way to go since it's possible to do it for free. I do feel like my ideas are good enough to get published the traditional way, so I guess I'll sit on them until I can find an agent who'll go out on a limb for someone with zero publishing experience. Thanks guys, I'm so glad i found this site
     
  15. iWant iStrive

    iWant iStrive New Member

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    Self-publishing is definitely a viable alternative to traditional publishing. And I think people the deride self publishing had better change their attitude soon because capitalism is at work and traditional publishing will soon be run into the ground if Amazon has its way.

    Just look at the trail of destruction Amazon has left in its path revolutionising industries, traditionally publishing is a dying industry and they know it. Amazon is going after them big time.
     
  16. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    That's like saying Paramount should be worried about Netflix. Amazon is a sales portal. Book stores should be worried, but trade publishers can still sell online, and they'll have many strengths over a single author flogging their own work, including the resources to advertise and pay amazon for priority listing.
     
  17. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Amazon has only a small niche in the trade publishing world. As Selbbin said, they're a retailer. Without trade/indie publishers, they'd have nothing but self-published books - and how long do you really think they'd stay in business (book-wise) then? If you really think trade publishing is dying, you've been listening to the wrong people, my friend...
     
  18. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    yup!
     
  19. lettuce head

    lettuce head Active Member

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    But there is no doubt publishing is transforming. I live in an area that used to have the highest per capita of printing presses in the world boasting such titles as McCalls, Reader's Digest and numerous other magazines printed here. They are all gone. Our family printing company is still holding on, but it can't be much longer, ten years, maybe.

    The internet will save more trees from turning to pulp than Gutenberg gave reason for their cutting. Thirty years ago Xerox was promoting the paperless warehouse concept. I helped implement NCR's on demand printing system twenty-five years ago. They eventually eliminated the need to store eleven million dollars worth of inventory. Short run is the answer. And supplying a downloadable PDF service manual is cheaper still.

    Printing costs are high and going higher. Publishers are selling more and more books electronically with a much higher profit margin than print. We will not see the elimination of printed books but we will continue to see a decline and ebooks will continue to increase. But like you say, just because it is becoming more accepted doesn't mean publishers will cease to exist. They are a much needed entity for sure. They understand markets, how to position a book, what is hot, etc. You can't replace that.
     
  20. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    And again - epublishing is a format. Trade publishers are well into epublishing as well as print. And magazines are a different animal re: printing costs than trade or indie publishers. Currently print costs are only about 10% of total cost to produce a book; I imagine it would have to go much, much higher before print books go out the window.
     
  21. lettuce head

    lettuce head Active Member

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    They won't go out the window. There is still a need for a good old fashioned page turner, but they may go up in price and become less available as bookstores continue to close. 10% cost to print a book? I haven't priced a print job in many years. Seems to me it might be more than that. Not sure these days. But, add to that distribution and the cost of unsold book returns. It adds up big time. Some of the most expensive production costs are eliminated with epublishing with a much higher return. The writing is on the wall.
     
  22. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Ten percent is the cost estimate I've found most places and from most people I've talked to in publishing. Distribution and returns are also small compared to the total cost (acquisition, editing, marketing). They may be included in the print cost, but I couldn't swear to that. But the major costs remain the same regardless of format.
     
  23. lettuce head

    lettuce head Active Member

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    I can see acquisition, editing and marketing remaining the same and being included in what you refer to major costs. Can't get rid of those costs. But of course printing costs don't apply to the epublishing format. I wonder if the rate of unsold books has increased do to epuplishing because if more people are buying Kindle versions, less printed versions are being purchased at the stores. I'd hate to be the one dancing with those figures trying to balance out the return rates.

    Some publishers do a short run and get them out on the shelves before committing to a longer run. I'm hearing that ebooks are the most inexpensive way to test market for a publisher to see what kind of traction a book might get. Makes sense.
     
  24. swhibs123

    swhibs123 Active Member

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    So much depends on the market and genre. The bolded comment can not be a blanket statement. Kids novels, non-fiction, genre fiction... the market share, and therefore relevance of success (or failure) in the digital market, would range wildly. Could be relevant, but could just as easily be completely irrelevant. Just something to consider.
     
  25. lettuce head

    lettuce head Active Member

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    Good point. Depends on the factors. There are so many books that wouldn't sell as an ebook.
     

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