1. Jonathan22
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    Jonathan22 Contributing Member

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    Sexism?

    Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Jonathan22, Jul 13, 2011.

    Okay, so I was channel hopping this morning, and I came across a music channel playing non-stop Beyonce for a half hour. Fantastic for some, but I'm not a fan.

    I put it on just as 'If I was a boy' finished followed by 'Who runs the world (Girls)' and it sort of made me think, why is she allowed to get away with such sexist songs?

    They are just that, fairly obviously too, but I can't help but feel if a male artist wrote a song called 'If I was a girl' or 'Who runs the world (Boys)' it would cause such a commotion, or am I wrong? Are there such popular and acclaimed songs by male artists like this? It'd be good to know!

    This is just a bit of a gripe from myself, I'm not saying I think there should be such songs by male artists. I just find it a little annoying that sexism seems to have acceptingly swung the other way without any fuss being made?
     
  2. LaGs
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    LaGs Banned

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    Just be sexist right back at the screen and say 'Phwoah...Look at that arse!'
     
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  3. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    Lots of rap songs talk about "I don't need you but you need me ****"
    So yeah, they do have sexim in it all the time, the huge problem is evreyonehas a defreint idea of what it is, some thinkits when you dont treat them as eqauls, others yell at anytime you talk about a girl talking about her feelins
     
  4. Jonathan22
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    Jonathan22 Contributing Member

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    Haha, that's another thing that makes me a little annoyed... these people want to get respected as artists yet go around all scantily clad and seductively in their videos? Contradiction, I do believe!
     
  5. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    Not really, sex and cash rules the world, they look like that and they get paid more, they gets more power and more respected
    Don't believe me? Look at how famous some rappers are look at lady Gaga they all are respected more so then a lot of movie stars and the like

    Music is not just about the music anymore it never has been, even blue guitarist and classical pepole use deferent things to get the attention of the audience
     
  6. Vespers
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    Vespers Member

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    Are you typing with three broken fingers and your eyes closed? Geez...

    But anyway, I can't stand Beyonce, she's probably my least favorite "artist" in the world. I also don't support the womanizing that's rampant in rap or other songs, so don't say I'm being biased; I hate sexism in general. Then again, I don't see wanting to protect my girlfriend from other guys or wanting to open doors and stuff for her as sexism at all, and some people would.
     
  7. Silver Random
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    Silver Random Senior Member

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    I have felt concern about stuff like this too, for a while, where basically it seems Ok for woman to insult men (even talking about them as "The weaker sex") but not the other way round. I guess it is just the the natural result of the momentum since women were actually opressed in the past and so had to fight for equal rights, had to stand up and say that women weren't inferior. Now that they do have equality (in some places, not in all countries) we have the situation where being sexist against men is Ok because in the past that kind of momentum was considered good, but being sexist against women is considered bad because it was so prevalent in the past and now everyone has grown to hate it.

    I hope that in the future this will not be the case. I don't know how long it will take for there to be true equality. And in a way, treating this kind of stuff as being Ok is more harmful to feminism (i.e. equality for women, not superiority of women) than helpful, because it recalls more a time when they were not equal than anything else.
     
  8. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    Are you talking to me? Cause nothing in there was spelled wrong... was it?
    even so its not that bad
     
  9. LaGs
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    LaGs Banned

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    Wait? Then I'd be proving her point, wouldn't I? So I'm being sexist while watching a music video that's being sexist about men being sexist.

    MIND BLOWN
     
  10. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    Another thing I'd like to point out we kept a lot of the sexism values even if we say we are above it, some examples

    The guy asking the girl on the date if he dose not then he is not a "real man"
    which suggest the man has to be in charged even when we don't want it

    The guy paying for the diner while not sexism in of it self the reason this tradition came around was the guy was sopouse to pay for all her things as women did not work once again a sexism value

    The female expects the guy to talk first, once again it was a "donut speak unless spoken to" or a "should be seen not heard"
    Agree we have turned in to a real gentlemen trait but the fact remains that there was a time women where seen not heard and all of that which is where it comes form


    the girl shoving the cake at the wedding is even a sign of submissiveness, once again we keep it There are a lot more then that, and you will notice we kind of changed some of them but its still there


    Like the doors, we turned it in to something nice but is it not sexism if you open for the girls but not the guys?
    since he is a guy he dose not need the door open for him?

    Hard question huh?
    obviously some pepole will not call them sexism as they grew up with these as ok but the fat remains we got them form our sexist days

    Obviously I'm not a girl so I don't know as many as theres
     
  11. Jonathan22
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    Jonathan22 Contributing Member

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    Such things aren't applied as much nowadays as they were, and I have to say, in terms of guys speaking first and asking out first etc., who is stopping them? I'm certainly not. If I want to talk to a girl first, I will. I'd expect her to talk to me if she wanted too, I ain't stopping her.
    Trying to make such things out as sexism now is not at all what I'm talking about, so I don't agree with you there Wolfi. That's looking for a bad thing if you ask me.
    What I'm getting at is the lyrics and image of women artists such as Beyonce, and the negative effect it has. Much different!
     
  12. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    They are to be honest, sure the talking one is a bit rarer but you never meet a girl who wants the guy to talk first? ever? I meet them all the time


    I was just showing that we adopted a lot of the attudies also its not me looking for them, go study them there are loads of articals about them and how they came to be
    It's not me turning them in to them they where long before we used them

    like carrying the wife over the dorr way, it was to keep evil sprits form messing with her "pureity"
    there are loads more go study these things and why they are tradtions you will find its not me turing them in to sexim they where them long before we ever used them


    What about the males to?
    In rap you have to be tough and in a gang or black, you have to have all kinds of things wear black ect

    Both sides have set rules on what to do, some break it others dont
    most break it cause its the only way in to the bussnies


    Many bands ahve had oringal members kicked out and replaced becuse they did not have the right "look" most the time not a otugh enough guy or not a short enough skirt for the girls
     
  13. LaGs
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    LaGs Banned

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    That's more of an example of societal convention as opposed to an outright example of sexist values.

    This is pretty outdated, and NOT as prevalent as it once was. A lot of women nowadays would be likely to share paying for meals and things, but it usually depends on the relationship, and indeed, the general attitude of the man who might insist on paying for it. If that's the case, then it's the man who is perpetuating this kind of thing, and not out of a woman taking advantage of the fact she's a woman.

    This might have happened when I was in primary school when I was like, 10 or 11, but to assume that this happens in adulthood is totally ridiculous.


    lol wut?


    This is general politeness my friend, and I would do it as quickly for a man as I would for a woman
     
  14. Sundae
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    Sundae Contributing Member

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    Even though her songs can be viewed as sexist, the overall and overwhelming theme in most of her songs always seem to be female empowerment.

    She is able to "get away with it" because her songs overall message tend to be more positive than negative. I don't' think she trying to devalue or discriminate the male gender but more send a message that females have a presence in world and it's strong.
     
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  15. Jonathan22
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    Jonathan22 Contributing Member

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    I agree with LaGs, this is not examples of sexism. Ask any woman or man about those kind of things, and the majority will say there is nothing wrong with such things.

    What big, glorified rapping artists really use such lyrics though? Beyonce wins music awards and the likes all the time.... rappers who use such lyrics do not. And I don't condone either, at all. Both sides using sexism should not be allowed to be so condescending and in the example I have referred to, not only are they not discouraged, they are glorified for such views it seems.
     
  16. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    I told you we "edited" them but they where sexist vaules go study back then and you will fidn that is why it was used


    But here your saying no women dose this?
    you blame it all on the man? what dose that say ;)
    But for real as I said this once is not used as much how ever it is still around and it is where it came form


    I could get about 80,000 more of these and show you that guys and girls
    Think the male should pay becuse its tradition but they dont know where the tradition came form




    It dose I've seen it many times

    just beuicse you never seen a flying bird dose that mean they dont exist?






    did i say you would not?
    But how many guys do you see hold the door for a girl then close it when a guy comes?
    of couse there are some that hold the door for evrey one (I my self do) but not evrey one dose

    Do me a favor do you dissagre this is where said "Tradiitons" came form? or are you saying I'm wrong at that to?
     
  17. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    When you say "should not be allowed," do you mean you think there should be a law against it or something?
     
  18. LaGs
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    LaGs Banned

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    I don't think you 'got' what I said, so i'll repeat it. This happening today is NOT sexism, It's societal convention. Sometimes people break convention. A woman might ask a man out on a date in this day and age, who knows? It's not a set-in-concrete principle. Did it originate from sexism? I'm not so sure. But I'm talking in a modern context, so I don't really care if it was!



    I think if a man is stupid and naive enough to let a woman take advantage of him in this way, then I say he deserves everything he gets. The same applies for a naive idiot who blindly buys a woman drinks when it's abundantly clear she has no interest in him whatsoever. And again, I'll repeat, it's an outdated practice for the most part. FOR THE MOST PART.


    If you think a woman has a tendency not to speak first, then I'm sorry but I'll start to question what age you are. And that's not meant as a personal insult, but I think this sort of thing is what happens with children, and is in general, a very childish way of looking at things.



    I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall if i'm honest. Opening the door for someone is not dependent on what sex they are. I would do it for both men AND women because it's POLITE
     
  19. Jonathan22
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    Jonathan22 Contributing Member

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    No, what I mean is it shouldn't be so encouraged as it is at the moment. Sorry, 'should not be allowed' was a wrong and clumsy term to use. What I mean is, artists who use such lyrics should not be publicised and glorified as they are, as their views have negative effects, in my opinion!
     
  20. Jonathan22
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    Jonathan22 Contributing Member

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    @Sundae, of course women have a strong effect on the world - they make up half it's population! Her song 'Who runs the world (Girls)' is though, sexist, no two ways about it as far as I can see. It is the song that brought this to my attention after all, so I think that song in particular has a negative effect.
     
  21. Sundae
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    Sundae Contributing Member

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    If you go back and read my posts you will see that I said that her songs can be viewed as sexist. I didn't deny that.

    I wasn't substituting female empowerment for sexism and calling it one or another. In fact you can't separate the two.

    As far as the rest go, it's all a matter of subjectivity and I'm not going into how you interpret it versus how I interpret it. I don't think she's specifically aiming to devalue the male gender, but I do believe that she's making an example out of distinctly picked "scenarios" / "stereotypes" and using it to fuel her message of female empowerment.
     
  22. Jonathan22
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    Jonathan22 Contributing Member

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    Fair enough. It is indeed all to do with opinions. I am fairly surprised by the amount of quick feedback mind you, haha, good to see people sharing their views. Thanks everyone!
     
  23. NikkiNoodle
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    NikkiNoodle Active Member

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    As a mom of two boys, I know I am particularly sensitive to the issue and that mothers of little girls have just as much to think about, but I can't help but notice that the pendulum has swung quite far in the direction of girls running the world. My husband didn't even notice it until I pointed it out but now that he sees it, examples are EVERYWHERE. Songs by Beyonce not withstanding...

    There is now a commercial where women are saving men from making un-manly beer choices

    An episode of Dr Phil..."Why women are better than men"

    "family sitcoms" (I use this term loosely) where the man is a brainless slob and it's the woman who has all the common sense

    Start looking for it and you see it everywhere. So far as to have a debate on the morning news between a woman who had said of a wronged wife, "She should have cut his **** off," and a man who was infuriated by the comment (and rightly so) who said, "if I would have said, "He should have ripped her vagina out," womens rights pundits would have eaten me alive."
    *loose quotes from memory, the gist is the point, anyway

    Should the sexes be equal? Yes. Are we different? Yes, and thats okay. But I do have to say that I hate to see the commercial "dumification" of men in the world my sons have to grow up in. It's a good thing they have an amazing father to look up to or they would be in trouble!
     
  24. wolfi
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    wolfi Contributing Member

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    Did I say they where? I said the traditions CAME form a sixmi time
    We use them to mean something eles now but dose that mean its not?

    What do you call sexism?

    When one gender is not equal?

    The door open for only one gender (not counting if you open it for both as i said a billion times please do not say it again)
    the man paying for the food

    the man proposing to the women

    All of those (some of them dont hapeen evrey where)
    call them uneqaul its almost unheard of for a women to prpouse to a guy
    thats sexist, why cant a girl prpouse?
    Why can't a girl walk in to the room after the wedding her self?
    becuse they need the man to "craay them" form the eveil sprits?
    the guy can handle them though?
    once again sexist
    Even if you dont know what the traddions where made for they still stand as such

    Just becuse you dont know the middle finer is "bad" dose not mean its not bad

    The traditions came form those which are sexist vaules

    many more


    What dose that have to do with anything? its a tradiion yes
    dose not mean its not sexist
    . once again we both agree none of them are set in stone, but it still hapeens
    Just cause 100,000 girls ask out a guy right now dose not mean its not sexsim
    as long as one girl exspects the "man" to ask her out it is a sexism veiw
    becuse you exspect them to do something as they are the "man" or "pants in the relsishsip"
    Look it up you will fidn that it did , there is no ophion on this, it is a fact
    And also why use it now? becuse socity says its polite? dose that means iots not sexsit?
    I dont think so

    They are the same thing a societal convention is something that we do as a society, in other words a tradition
    Sexism is perfectly possible to be a social convention
    I don't understand what your trying to prove I even said its a traidion
    Every one can break tradition, I never said evrey one did it did I?
    I'm saying there ARE Sexism remains in our society that we claim we dont have

    Music is not the only one

    Just as you don't see this as sexism many don't see the music as such
    are they wrong? no more then you or I






    Sure it is outdated and not evrey one dose it, I've agreed a billion times stop saying it over and over we agree on that part please stop saying it. its impossble to say evrey body dose something except maybe breathing
    But It's still there and was there even when we where "equals" we kept said vaules of a man buying the girl a drink as for being naive in a lot of places its a societal convention


    Also a lot of pepole are raized that way so are they stupied to do what they where taught was right?
    after all your only saying this cause you where taught that these things where not sexsim




    Ever been to a bar? Ever seen women there look at a guy and wait for hoim to make the first move?

    ever had full grown women talk how good looking some guy is but never talk about it?
    Ever seen a full grown women "just freinds" with a guy who has yet to ask her?
    Ever been to a concert?
    how about a collgae?
    just some of the plavces I've seen full grown pepole do it, your free to say that it's a niave thing andf I'll agree but saying no grown up dose it is niave

    i know full well girls can and do talk first but not always
    becuse they keep some of the traditions form the time, its mainly who and how ytou where rasized
    Now I'm the one talking to a brick wall

    I even said if you do it for both then it means nothign to you! what part of that did you not understand?
    What part of this
    I'm not talking about those who open the door for evrey one

    I'm talking about those who open the door just for girls and there are those that do it
    You did not even read my post, I said it like 8 times alredy I'm talking about those who open it for girls to be polite but not guys

    The fact that you missed that makes me wonder if your just auguring to argue
     
  25. Jonathan22
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    Jonathan22 Contributing Member

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    I think Wolfi what the difference between societal convention and sexism is, is that societal convention is the optional way of life we have now, as opposed to sexism which is a forced tradition. Yes the former comes from the latter's traditions, but in these days, the girl wants - and i'm sure I'm not wrong in saying this, girls - to be proposed to for the romantic notion side of it. It is not because women can't propose: they don't.
    I think all of that is going too off topic for what I wanted to originally discuss, so please let that be the end of the social convention / sexism debate please and get back to what I originally brought up! Thanks.

    Thanks for the response NikkiNoodle, that is a fascinating view, I must say, and one I obviously agree with!
     

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