She made me do it

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by jazzabel, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    Where I come from (which to be fair is not where most people come from, but still...) vigilantism is reality. Let me tell you, someone hurts me, anyone, physically, and the men who are important to me in my life will make them pay - whether I want them to or not. Even if they are going to jail, it doesn't matter.

    I feel no guilt, and I never have. I didn't do a damn thing wrong other than existing when he was in the mood. The cops didn't do anything, but I didn't say nothing was done.

    While I'm sure there are plenty of victims that have no support, here at least, I'd be surprised if that's the norm.

    @T.Trian It's fairly common where I'm from. The main males in my life would not only defend me, but any woman that they saw being abused, as would I. Of course, I'm a displaced southern girl, so I don't hang with the normal northern crowd, lol.
     
  2. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    What I thought was most interesting was his acknowledgement and exploitation of
    and
     
  3. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    I was talking about my experiences with situations I know about, where I'm from. Specifically.

    Yes it does. I'm of the mind that I have nothing to hide, because there's nothing I'd care to.
     
  4. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    A good question, and I wish I had an answer. In lieu of what Jazzabel said about the interviewer spotting when "a victim" lies and when they're telling the truth: if there's alcohol involved, the participants probably don't even remember what happened or they have false memories. The guy remembers (or in some cases "remembers") there was consent, the girl denies it. The girl might refrain from reporting if she feels unable to give a clear, cohesive account. All she has going for her is bits and pieces, a sense of shame and of being used, perhaps a memory of saying 'no' but no witness, perhaps no name if it was some random guy at a random party. That's when it's easy to turn on oneself, put the blame on your own reckless behavior. And who knows, maybe the guy knew exactly what he was doing and does it to another girl (or a guy). This may sound strange to some -- either there was rape or there wasn't -- but drugs and alcohol can play tricks on you, both of the participants. (This is based on a real case. The rape was never prosecuted because the girl had such shaky memories that clashed with the guy's, so she didn't report it. Eventually her story was published in a paper).

    I echo what T.Trian said. Vigilantism is one avenue of seeking justice. Amidst people who are inclined to live somewhat "tribal", like the Romani at least over here, will be quick to avenge injustices on their loved ones and friends. Of course one reason is that the police is not their friend to start with, they often treat them with suspicion and prejudice, so if they want punishment, it's up to them to deliver it.
     
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  5. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    This. Exactly this.
     
  6. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Trish: I must say that in my experience, your attitude is rare. But I wish it wasn't, because it's much better to get angry then suffer in silence. As far as vigilantism is concerned, if the vigilantes go against survivor's desires, as often they propose to, misguidedly thinking that they are helping, it can be just as damaging in terms of stress and anxiety. Hot-headedness is a dangerous response in any situation, as violence invites violence, and most survivors have had quite enough of that.

    @chicagoliz: See, to me that's just common bragging, all psychopaths do it, it gets really old once you hear it a few times. This guy reminds me of Ted Bundy in as much that he was handsome, organised and sought to befriend powerful people in order to build a public persona that is 'above reproach'.

    I've seen it all before, and I shudder to think what this guy has done, and will possibly do in the future. In any case, it's a deep-seated rage towards women that's quite clearly driving him, and he is evidently good at not getting caught. It's a bad situation and I'm surprised nobody reported this comment to the police. But I understand it would probably go nowhere.
     
  7. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    If someone harms my daughter, they're certainly going to deal with me. If the State brings charges to redress a harm to public order, or what have you, then fine. But the State didn't care for my daughter as an infant, or play with her, or hold her when she was sick, and hasn't spent 18 years loving her and raising her. So as far as I'm concerned, anyone who harms her owes a debt beyond that to the State, and my own sense of justice is likely to be much more substantial than what the State offers.
     
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  8. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    Who said anything about hot-headed?

    It's not a deep-seated rage towards women. Too much of that talk going around already. It's thrill-seeking, entitlement, and ego. There's a difference.
     
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  9. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Trish: Forensic psychiatric community will beg to differ on both counts. If you would like to know more about psychopathology of serial rapists, the information is available in any forensic psychiatry textbook and there are many articles and studies on line. But obviously, beware of reading up on anything that can be triggering.
     
  10. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    Accepted doesn't always mean correct. That's also accepted and known.

    :)
     
  11. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Trish: Forensic psych, like all medicine, is a field that reaches conclusions based on analysis of thousands of cases. Same with any serious field. Also, don't assume any group, including professionals, are somehow immune from first-hand experiences of rape. I am just really wary of triggering you, so I'll leave it at that.
     
  12. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    Condescending much? LMAO... triggering me? Psych talk is a little heavy in here init? Don't you worry about me. And I'm fully aware of how medicine reaches their conclusions, I'm also fully aware of the biases that exist to reach whatever the current need is.

    Please don't assume that you have the ability to 'trigger' anything, in me or anyone else, and treat me like a person instead of a victim. What you just said is huge part of the reason victims always feel like victims (myself not included). I'm not the one assuming anything, I'm stating my opinion, as (possibly?) the only actual rape victim in this thread, or at the very least - the only one willing to talk about it.
     
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  13. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Trish I wasn't trying to be condescending at all, or treat you as a victim, and I really apologise if I came across that way.
    Be as it may, you do sound agitated and caustic, and to me that, alongside with the knowledge that you have been raped, means I should not continue discussing this with you in this manner. I hope you understand.
     
  14. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    You're really something. Don't you get it? I'm agitated because you seem to be trying to do what's 'best for me' without any knowledge of what that might be. You know nothing about me other than that I've been raped, and now you designate yourself to decide what I can and can't handle. If you can't see that... I don't even know what to say to you.
     
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  15. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Trish: I am not doing anything 'for you'. I don't know you at all, we are just two forum members who are discussing an issue. I, like you, am exercising my right to speak my mind, but I do not wish argue with anyone in this way.

    I would be disappointed if my attempts at decreasing tension in our conversation, were misinterpreted as weakness. I would like you to extend me the same verbal courtesy that I am offering you.
     
  16. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    What? You are trying to do something 'for me' because you're 'wary of triggering' me.

    Weakness? I don't know what to say. You think I'm weak, lol. It's clear as day in what you've said already, and now you're back-pedaling like a circus bear. Have fun with that.

    Verbal courtesy? Actually, you do wish to argue this way (see your previous non-argument with JJ_Maxx) you just don't want to argue with me this way. That's also clear as day.

    At least you were right about us not knowing each other :)
     
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  17. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    And I would have taken it as such if not for the rest of the conversation. But I appreciate your take on it.
     
  18. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    o_O Wow... just wow. I agree with Trish, this is just demeaning.
     
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  19. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Cartographers: It's interesting about the trends you mentioned. The way I see it, if a survivor (or a victim, everyone has the right to choose how they view themselves and neither term is good or bad in itself) has strong feelings one way or another, the best anyone can do is to accept it after they've been made aware. But all these are just individual preferences and I don't think there's ever going to be one 'right' way that will satisfy everybody, in every situation :)
     
  20. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    Exactly what I was about to say. :D I know some guys do go out with blazing rage and a baseball bat, get caught, and just cause a bigger mess, but there are two things that may or may not be culture-specific that are quite prevalent here in Finland:
    1. The community easily turns against an assumed rapist (even rumors may be enough to destroy someone's good name in some areas), so guys who end up the victims of vigilantism don't always dare go to the police for fear of further retaliation/drawing negative attention to themselves which could even lead to them getting fired, harassed etc, be they innocent or guilty.
    This does vary between neighborhoods and communities though, but I only have experience of largely white, sub-urban areas in the capital area as well as some pretty much all-white small towns further north (with the exception of that one weird town where the people were perfectly fine hanging with a guy who had raped an unconscious girl and an unconscious guy, both still his friends... Royston Vasey much?).
    2. Quite a few of these vendettas are actually planned out; guys take turns to stake out the assumed perp's place, sometimes overnight or for a few nights, learning his patterns, looking for the quiet, opportune moment, e.g. when he's returning from work or from the local pub, before they attack, often wearing skiing masks and nondescript clothing, carrying melee weapons they discard (along with the clothes worn at the time) after the incident, careful not to leave finger prints or DNA on the victim or the scene.
    There are some exceptions, like skinheads, who like to make a big deal out of the whole thing, take credit for the vendetta to make themselves a name, but especially a decade ago or earlier it wasn't uncommon for the police to turn a blind eye in these cases since it wasn't uncommon for there to be police officers who sympathized with the extreme right-wing movement, giving them more latitude when it came to persecuting violent crimes.
    Anyway, revenge is best served cold.
     
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  21. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    @T.Trian : Exactly. I don't know what being hot-headed had to do with it. Not around here anyway. There's no point to that, planning is a necessary part of hunting ;)
     
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  22. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @T.Trian: In the UK, things are quite different. Here, people will keep a convicted paedophile in their circle of friends, and believe their lies (that they were set up, wrongly convicted etc) they'll even go as far as letting them hang around their children, just because they can't face the horror. People here tend to be quite avoidant (well, typical Brits anyway). Not everyone, obviously, but to generalise, the English tend to be almost terrified of confrontation. Unless they are very drunk.
     
  23. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    It can also be even therapeutic to some, all the planning and preparation that goes into it. From what I've heard, many loved ones of rape victims feel this impotent rage and it can give them a sense of doing something (in addition to being there for their loved one) even if they never get the opportunity to go through with their plans.
     
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  24. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    Oh, definitely. Revenge fantasies are very common amongst survivors and their loved ones. They seldom turn into anything concrete, I guess it's a 'between the rock and a hard place' situation.
     
  25. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

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    I would have to agree. The need to do something is quite strong. Especially when it seems that no one else is doing anything, or at the least not doing enough.
     

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