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  1. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    Should cancer be treated with only natural means?

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Link the Writer, Jan 13, 2016.

    http://zeldauniverse.net/forums/index.php/Thread/179810-The-Truth-About-Cancer/?postID=5703515#post5703515

    This thread on the Zelda Universe forum had disturbed me greatly. In short, the OP argues that using means like chemotherapy or artificial drugs to treat/cure cancer does nothing but line Big Pharma's pockets. That there are natural treatments to cancer that Big Pharma is deliberately hiding, that if you have cancer, just rely on a strict diet of natural/mineral goodies to get rid of your cancer.

    This was the last post on the thread. My post (I'm known as linkthezora on that forum.)

    What are your thoughts on this?
     
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  2. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    There's a very big difference between prevention and cure, which some people confuse. Along with exercise, a healthy diet rich in fruits and vegetables is the best thing a person can do to avoid cancer. A malignant tumour that doctors can say will kill you within two years responding to non-GMO, homemade flax bread with freshly-squeezed orange juice? I think it bugs you because it is twisted.
     
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  3. Ivana
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    Ivana Contributing Member

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    Hey, Link. Interesting thread.
    If we're talking strictly about cancer, then I'm sure there was no near as much cancer patients 100, or even 50 years ago. Nowadays it seems to be epidemic, sadly. One could easily link it to our lifestyle, processed foods, GMO, radiation etc. It is not a conspiracy theory, it's a common sense, I'd say. I also do believe that pharmaceutical companies are one of the greatest evils on this planet. And that they are extremely rich. I also don't think that, in 21st century, when animals are being sucessfully cloned, not a single scientist or doctor could find a cure for cancer (even though cancer researche centers receive very large funds for their "fight" against cancer).
    I do believe in nature's power to heal. Take cannabis, for example. I know a guy who was diagnosed with glioblastoma (probably the worst kind of cancer one could get - a terminal stadium of brain cancer). Doctors told him there's no cure for this cancer. Actually, there was no single case of glioblastoma being sucessfully treated with chemo or radiation. They did operate him, but eventually every glioblastoma comes back - within couple of months. So they gave him like 3-4 months to live.
    What did he do? He started taking cannabis oil. As I know, almost a year had passed, he's living and working as usual, there is no cancer on sight.
    So yeah, I think we should give nature a chance.
     
  4. Moth
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    Moth Active Member

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    Darwinism at work. Except when it's their children with the cancer and they refuse medical treatment, then it's extreme negligence and potentially manslaughter.
     
  5. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Hemlock is a 'natural' substance. The idea natural means anything special is a myth.

    I'll have to look at the discussion later, not a lot of time at the moment. But turning down well studied, well proven 'unnatural' cures is a fool's errand. Just ask Steve Jobs. Oh, wait, you can't.
     
  6. Link the Writer
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    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    That's the thing. Back in high school, I once knew a classmate who had leukemia twice (well, the first time was years back.) He had chemotherapy for those two times and guess what? He survived!! I remember playing Guild Wars 2 with him during the summers as he recovered from his second battle with cancer. To my knowledge, he's still alive and kicking.

    Granted, he was young enough, and they caught it early enough before it did too much damage, but still, his parents didn't just lock him in his room and feed him a strict iron+protein rich diet and that was it. If they had done that, he likely would've died the first time.

    Look, natural substances are cool, and if they can provide treatment, all the better, but they mustn't replace all possible treatment options.
     
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  7. NigeTheHat
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    NigeTheHat Contributing Member Contributor

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    He's getting his info from Natural News. The place is a propaganda den.
     
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  8. Nilfiry
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    Nilfiry Contributing Member

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    Treatment =/= Cure. Anything label as a treatment will inevitably be lining someone's pockets. Pulling the grass without pulling its roots will simply allow it to flourish once the spring wind comes.

    As for an actual cure, I believe that stopping (aka curing) cancer is possible by removing the driver of the cancer in one way or another, but preventing it is probably unlikely if it is meant to be. Unlike most other diseases, cancer is not generally the result of an external invasion. It usually results from genetic errors, which originates from within the body. "Genetic error" may sound like a bad thing since it also represents the inability to give "proper" instructions as inherited from the parents, but if one takes a look from a different point of view, the better term would be genetic mutation and "different" instructions.

    If one is to believe in the modern theory of evolution, then the human race undergoing mutation is inevitable. The nature of cancer better implies that it is a byproduct of [the early stages of] an ongoing mutation that we may not be too fully aware of. After all, mutations can take anywhere from tens of thousands to millions of years to become prevalent, and it is likely to go unnoticed as one can only see a tiny window of it and at an extremely slow pace at that. Furthermore, it seems reasonable that not all mutations will work out peacefully, so fatal results are unsurprising.

    Sure, one can bring up the fact all of the cells in a body undergoes a complete refresh (all old cells replaced by new ones) after a certain number of years to argue "you are what you eat," but adapting to the changes of the environment and food source is all part of the natural order of evolution. As a result, I cannot exactly agree with eating only natural foods to treat cancer, but it probably helps to influence other things that may or may not be beneficial to a person.

    /2 noncents.
     
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  9. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    So my blood pressure medicine and the Plaquenil that keeps my arthritis at bay are rip offs because they are treatments not cures?

    You have some other errors in your post there, really big ones.
     
  10. Nilfiry
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    Nilfiry Contributing Member

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    Are you cured of your hyper/hypotension and your arthritis after taking a few doses? Or are you dependent on your medication to keep your symptoms manageable? I am not saying the treatments do not help. I am saying they are not a cure.
     
  11. jannert
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    jannert Contributing Member Supporter Contributor

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    I have a friend who feeds me all sorts of nonsensical stuff about 'curing' cancer by all sorts of means. Coconut is the new miracle, apparently. Closely followed by lots and lots of other exotic ingredients. I keep telling her, every time she reads one of these articles and sends it across her email address list she needs to check out whether they are trying to sell her something. 99 times out of 100, they are. To me this makes them just as suspect as traditional medicine.

    Cancer is something we still don't understand. While certain kinds of bad lifestyle choices can make it more likely to get certain kinds of cancer ...lung cancer is connected strongly to smoking or exposure to toxic substances like asbestos. Mouth and throat cancer is strongly associated with drinking and smoking. Colon cancer is strongly associated with a fibre-free diet, especially if combined with meats containing nitrates. Skin cancer is strongly associated with too much exposure to sunlight or the artificial equivalent. And so forth. However, people who have none of these habits sometimes get these cancers as well. And some people who wallow in bad habits die in their 90s of something else altogether. So we still don't quite understand cancer, the way we understand measles or polio.

    Because we don't understand it, and because it's so common, it's a scary disease. This makes people sitting ducks for all kinds of scams. While I'm not saying that none of the 'natural' substances have merit ...because some of them probably do (such as turmeric) ...it's a mistake to succumb to the wishful thinking that often accompanies the pitch for you to buy them.

    That being said, so many of the accepted methods of treating cancer ...radiotherapy, chemotherapy ...are so debilitating in themselves that to question the wisdom of applying them willy-nilly, as many doctors try to get you to do, is probably a sensible way to go.

    I'd say use the head. And don't be railroaded into any treatment that seems excessive for the expected results, or fall victim to thinking there is some miracle cure lurking in the filtered juice of some exotic fruit. And keep giving to cancer research and attempt to live as healthy a life as you can.

    ................

    That being said :) - I have managed to rebuild both of my knees (cartilage was badly damaged by 'wear and tear', according to my orthopaedic consultant) taking Holland & Barratt's high strength glucosamine/chondrytin/MST preparation. One knee went bad before the other one did, and I suffered for many months before I discovered the glucosamine. Within about a month of starting it, the pain upon resting was gone, and within a couple of years, my knee was back to normal. I stopped taking it after that, simply because I didn't need it any more.

    When my other knee went bad about a year and a half ago, I went back on this glucosamine preparation again, starting with the highest dose. After about 4 months the pain was gone, and now that knee is also is back to normal. This is a heck of a lot more palatable than being put on a waiting list for knee replacements. My orthopaedic consultant said he wished he could prescribe this preparation for me, as it works for many people ...but unfortunately it's not a prescribable drug. Never mind. I'll continue to take a reduced dose of it from now on. It really works.
     
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  12. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    You said, "Anything label as a treatment will inevitably be lining someone's pockets." So what? My meds are actually pretty inexpensive and not everything is curable.

    Perhaps someone else would put this to you a little more politely, but I see no need to beat around the bush:

    I'm sorry but I find your animosity toward the medical industry naive. Your understanding of evolution theory is seriously lacking, and you need a human anatomy lesson or two, not all the cells in our bodies are undergoing constant replacement.
     
  13. Nilfiry
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    Nilfiry Contributing Member

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    I have no animosity toward the medical industry as you claim, but I can recognize when something is a cure and when something is not. Whether or not an illness is curable is not the point here. The fact is that relief from pain from an illness is a money sinkhole. Inexpensive or not, it is still an expenditure, and the numbers add up when you multiply that by all the others that share your illness. I have no say whether that is good or bad, right or wrong. I am only stating that as I see it. At least I have not thrown out the conspiracy that the medical industry is holding back cures to milk money from treatments. I leave the possibility open.

    And now for the science part.... The permanent cells that do not undergo replacement are skeletal and heart muscles (brain cells have been debunked). Heart cancer is extremely rare, and cancers like RMS usually start as embryonic cells, and primarily affects children.

    Now let us examine some of the most common types of cancers...breasts, lung, prostate, liver, colon, bladder, melanoma (skin). What do they have in common? All of these have cells which are pretty darn good at regenerating. The statistics are looking good.
     
  14. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    The wording, "lining someone's pocket" reeks of animosity.

    I'm still not sure what your point is. "Cures" by that measure also line pockets.

    You seem to think that a mutation which triggers a cell to divide in an uncontrollable fashion is simply evolution. That's a bizarre interpretation of both cancer and evolution theory. I don't have time to discuss your 'theory'.
     
  15. Nilfiry
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    Nilfiry Contributing Member

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    That all depends on how you want to view it after all.

    If you want to summarize cures and treatments in terms of finances, the main difference is that you pay once to get permanently cured, and then you never have to feed the industry money again (unless you get sick again later). Treatments force you to continuously sink money into the industry in exchange for temporary relief without actually curing you, so you keep coming back for more (hmm, sounds like some other industries I know). Whether the tradeoff is worth it is beside the point. In the long run, you would probably spend more for repeated treatments than you would on a onetime payment for a cure.

    I know I made it sound like a medical conspiracy, but it is to show that cures and treatments are not the same thing medically or financially. You can treat lupus, but there is no cure for it.

    Call it bizarre if you want, but science is driven by all sorts of bizarre ideas. It is a fact that genetic mutations are what drives evolution, and cancer is a form of genetic mutation. The link is there. We just have to wait and see.
     
  16. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    "feed the industry money"
    "force you to continuously sink money into the industry"

    No animosity? :rolleyes:

    "show that cures and treatments are not the same thing medically or financially"

    Because you think it's a hard concept?

    Your math leaves a bit to be desired. Some cancer cures, hepatitis C cure, major heart surgery to cure a serious birth defect are all extremely expensive. I'd have to be on my meds more than a lifetime to come anywhere near that cost.
     
  17. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    I say cure cancer with whatever means is necessary. If you have to eat dogshit to cure cancer, then provide lots of hot sauce or ketchup with it.
     
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  18. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Eeewww. :blech:
     
  19. Frankee_thecat
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    "lining someone's pocket" - it cost my Dad $50,000 a year for treatment. Steep, but this is life and death whatta you do? Not paying doctors and nurses would be stupid. Big Pharm SHOULD be raking in the money....but yet, for sure, medicine has not done much for us lately (getting on 50 years) and some preventatives are just a scam.
    So yeah, big pharm should also be held to a high standard and if they don't deliver, then wives-tales it is. Economics, hey?
    Drugs work better when cells are doing housework (3-4am)....that is, less drug for same effect + same amount of drug for a greater effect...But administering at 3-4am? That isn't economics.

    Totally agree that a sky-scraper is every bit as natural as a termite hill.

    And there is still magic in the World - a doctor will line the injury up and that helps, but the healing step is doctor independent. It is inner magic - God's job.
    The placebo experiment where I hit your thumb with a hammer and then give it local, but after a few weeks I swap local for saline and the water itself somehow is the correct shape to 'fit' the receptor (even though it is nothing like) and water works just like anaesthetic?
    Placebo is real life magic.

    Sure, I think evolution can be seen in some cancers e.g. leukaemia

    Reckon it's probable that if a hypothetical person (no-one here) holds an extreme position one way or the other, that person is acting stupid and likely, for stupid reasons. Every Single case is Different. Yet if enough unpredictable individuals get together, we get very predictable truths from the population and it is smart to assume it as Truth For Everyone (even though it isn't, exactly).

    No one should know as much about your case as you. And no one should be making the choice but you. Bear with a real example:
    My grandma was incredibly fit and healthy at 93 (born 1910!). She cooked for our nuclear family every day. Bitched abut being ignored all the time. Very smart lady with lots to say. On a checkup our family doctor found that her aortic wall was weak. So he does what? Puts her on a blood thinning drug, of course. She died about 6 months later, almost unrecognisable with elephant feet and bed-sores after a month or so of hallucinating and crying through child-hood memories.
    She Should Have Died At The Sink And Not In Bed
    She should have 'popped' in her Glory, instead of whimpering away (!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
    The doctor was right, but the doctor was wrong. Even back then, there was a little too much 'symptom'...maybe even 'litigation'...focus and not enough of that guy who walks around town with his fat bag saying hello.
    The family was right to trust, but we trusted too much
    AND *did not work enough at it; our own selves*
    Saying that^ aloud all these years later, I still feel great shame and sorrow :(

    This also true: Grandma was a dragon lady - and a massive grammar nazi. She was in a coma & had been for many days. My mum and aunt were at her bed, BITCHING about how much of a Bitch Grandma was (and oh yeah she could be). Mum was on a tale about some past Wrong and used the words: "like she said"....and then!
    Grandma spoke for the first time in weeks - her final word.
    From the depths of her coma she said: "AS"
    Like a commandment from God :D
    I still remember mum and aunt, all wide eyed and open mouthed, lol it was very funny in a way....days of bitching completely squashed into silence by one word from an old lady in a coma.

    My serious advice - there is magic in the world. Often a pill. But sometimes a wives-tale and sometimes ????? yet all that non-pill the medico dismisses as 'spontaneous remission'.
    Trust the medicos, sure, but only so much. Be involved with your own destiny.
    Accepting a fault through failure of YOUR OWN involves less gnashing of teeth later on!

    A skyscraper is natural. Doctors etc. like money + sleeping in.
    Get over these things, it is nothing personal.
    Find your Truth as an unpredictable individual.
    And that will probably be a rough version of the 'population truth' (because there is real power there!)
    What you are is population truth + a little individual's unpredictable magic.
    Listen to everything. Be open to everything. Trust everyone.
    Then make your own choices. Be the doctor with the fat bag who looks at the 'whole life' bit.

    With love from a sufferer.
     
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  20. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Huh. If that were true than we would see no increase in survival rate over the last decade for cancer patients. Lets check this chart
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Sorry, that one chart is actually two of the same chart.
    But the chart says your friend is completely wrong! Cancer survival rate are up in every catagory. Even when they're up by a percentage point, that's still millions of people every year recovering from cancer!

    I do love the "there's a cure but they're hiding it" argument. It assumes that a cabal of scientists, medical professionals, executives, dozens of millions of people will never ever have a relative or loved one with cancer. That doctors and lawyers and accountants are all willing to throw their mother or wife or daughter in front of a bus, rather than give them the secret cure to cancer and blowing the whole thing wide open.

    Your friend is a fool. Don't listen to him.

    ***Bonus round!***
    Here's a woman who chose to use natural cures for cancer! She died.
    Here's another one.
     
  21. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    Like, oh, the grocery industry? After all, food is merely a temporary treatment for hunger.

    I fail to see the relevance of the distinction. If a "cure" costs half a million dollars, and a "treatment" costs me five dollars a month, is the "cure" inherently better just because I only had to pay for it once? For the price of the cure, I could treat myself for more than eight thousand years.
     
  22. etherealcalc
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    etherealcalc Member

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    I'm actually writing a story right now where a medical researcher's husband gets cancer, so I've been looking into how cancer impacts people emotionally and just looking up information in general on cancer.

    I'm not sure what exactly "natural" is defined as. Like, something that wasn't created in a lab, you mean?
    If so, overall, I think scientific developments are our best bet at fighting cancer. But I can easily see why someone who only has 6 months to live would rather live those 6 months chemo-free.
     
  23. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    If you want to use the natural cures at the same time as the medical cures, in most cases I don't think that would be an issue. Like, fresh fruits and veggies while getting chemo? Hell, yeah, great idea.

    But if it comes down to choosing one over the other? I'm going to look at success rates, and I'm pretty sure I know what those will tell me.
     
  24. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    If you define 'natural' in this case as "fresh fruits and veggies", then as @BayView notes, it's not a problem.

    But if you are led to believe untested, unsupported claims that some dietary supplement is going to have a benefit, then you really aren't getting a 'natural' cure. You are getting an untested, unproved supplement from the billion dollar supplement industry.
     
  25. WriterMMS
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    i dont agree with chemo therapy, its the blood letting of this age but to say natural means of treatment are the only way to go is preposterous.

    One such method that i believe will the best and safest method of treating cancer in the future is gene therapy so that the person's own body can sufficiently recognize and attack its own cancer cells

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21729104-100-gene-therapy-cures-leukaemia-in-eight-days/

    and about cancer itself, its not actually a disease but a byproduct of evolutionary forces. Populations of people arent the inly things undergoing mutations and evolving, cells can also do this.

    Cancer is essentially a part of an organism achieving immortality. But immortality isnt good in this case, when things dont stop growing, when they no longer age or die they lose purpose. A skin cell no longer wanting to take the form of skin or a lung cell no lo ger wanting to conform to the structure of a lung. Biological chaos.

    Pulsating, thriving masses of nondescript tissue. The eldritch abomination hiding within all of us.

    Every single one of us has cancer, its when the rest of our body cannot sufficiently trigger death or apoptosis is when its considered by the medical community as a disease.

    theres still a cancer sample known as Hela which was taken from a woman in the 1950s still alive today and used for research.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
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