Should he? Oh, boy...

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Stuffthing13, Dec 5, 2014.

  1. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    I agree, implicit threats of rape occur in an awful lot of film and literature and are usually associated with an inept Damsel in Distress and the male protagonist coming to save her. Its portrayal usually does neither men or women any favours.
     
  2. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    I don't think Dexter raped anyone, although I haven't read all the novels in the series (I'd imagine he didn't do it in the TV show either, wouldn't really serve his code). My point was, he's a sociopath and a serial killer, yet we still sympathize with him. Patrick Bateman is another example of a killer and a rapist as the protag. Wholly unlikable and unsympathetic, but American Psycho is a great book. If my memory serves me right, Angel was a rapist, as was Spike (sadistic vampires and all that).

    I can't speak for anyone else, really. I consider them both terrible acts, as well. For my taste, murder and (wo)manslaughter are often treated more lightly in fiction than rape. Good guys kill baddies left and right, especially those guards who are probably just trying to make a living, and are now widowed because they ended up in the crossfire of the protagonist and his/her antagonist. Doesn't mean the latter isn't used as a tool, as it is, it is an easy go-to tragedy for fiction writers 'cause it is so common in real life. But to me it's also a form of therapy, I suppose, to read other authors discuss it.

    I agree, of course.

    I think for this reason the OP can think about expanding his ideas into something else if he wants to discuss rape in this story. I just would caution against not doing something only because it's 1) overdone 2) might upset people 3) can be misinterpreted as something that it's not.

    If the story is well written, I would read it even if it was from the PoV of a rapist. Not to sympathize with them, but out of some morbid curiosity, I suppose, or maybe even that is a form of therapy? Though not if rape has been shown gratuitously. I can usually tell when the author is out of their depth.

    ETA: OP, this is not to say your premise works for me. Why would he rape somebody if he's still in love with the dead wife? Even though rape isn't about sexual desire, it still feels off. Also, if you proceed to not discuss the repercussions of such a crime, it's going to read trivial. Also, why would he stoop as low as his antagonists? (unless the answer is, well, he's a vampire = evil... Okay, maybe that's a bit too easy. How could he love if he was so evil?). So in this scene and context, I don't know, the whole thing feels off.
     
  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I don't remember anything about either Angel or Spike being a rapist. Sometimes there was a vague analogy between the vampire biting and sex/rape ("Spike had a little trip to the vet and now he doesn't chase the other puppies any more.") but that wasn't literally about sex.
     
  4. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    I will have to check it, but I'm thinking back to their pre-Sunnydale times. Of course I could remember wrong.

    ETA: Angel(us) raped a gypsy girl and Spike tried to rape Buffy. So I think that's what I was thinking about.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2014
  5. bossfearless

    bossfearless Active Member

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    If he's the kind of guy that would rape her, and you're writing the type of story where rape happens, then yeah he really should rape her. If you want to have him hold back, then he should hold back. This kind of snapping and going off the rails should have a major imapct on the character, though. I wouldn't rape the girl and then just never bring it up again. If he's gonna do it, then it needs to be a big deal with his psyche if he's never crossed that line before.

    Honestly, no one is gonna be able to tell you i it's right for your story but you. I think it can be a good addition if you don't flinch away at all, but only if you're writing an unflinching type of story. Otherwise it's out of place.
     
  6. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I go slightly ranty here:

    Why would he rape her? Rape isn't just something that happens. You don't forget what you're doing and realize, oops, I raped somebody.

    Why would he rape her rather than, oh, behead her, or butcher her and make chicken-fried steak out of her, or have her mounted on the wall like a game fish, use her bones for jewelry? Either he's lost his humanity and does a horrible thing that no decent human does, or he hasn't. Why is rape the one non-human thing that plots keep going to? Why is it treated as an obvious option?

    And why is it treated as forgivable? I would find it no more forgivable than the chicken-fried steak thing.
     
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  7. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak If the protag wanted the woman to keep on living with the burden of [something horrible], it's quite likely that something horrible is sexual assault. It might seem like an obvious choice of punishment to the character. That is, if he's got it in him, if he is a rapist, which he could be. See what @bossfearless said, it's not a walk in the park type of thing.

    If the protag rapes and kills the woman, it's more for his sake I suppose, 'cause she won't be burdened with it after she's dead (unless she comes back as a ghost or something), and if he does rape her, it's gonna fuck him up if he's got any morals -- which I suppose he should have if he just went and killed people for love...

    Although I doubt it'd be for love then. Maybe he's similar to other anti-heroes in the gothic canon, like Matthew G. Lewis's Ambrosio, who raped the girl he thought he loved, though of course, he was really a predator, not a lover. Like murder, rape (and violent, stalker-y, rap-y men in general) is sometimes warpedly romanticized, especially in gothic fiction, be it novels or on tv (the tormented Byronic hero trope and all that). It twists my stomach. That's the type of rape narrative I deeply dislike, and which would make me at least consider putting down the novel.
     
  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    The OP said the woman is going to be murdered regardless, so I totally agree with ChickenFreak - I'd rather see any other form of horrible torture rather than rape. And the author should be aware that there's no WAY I'm going to ever sympathize with or cheer for a character who does such a horrible thing.

    There are definitely characters that authors try to redeem. Jaime Lannister in GRRM's series, Gloktka in Joe Abercrombie's series, and others. I, for one, don't forgive them. Jaime Lannister threw a little boy out of a window - I hate him forever. Gloktka is an unrepentant torturer - that's it for him, I hate him. In both cases these are members of a large cast of characters so I'm able to keep reading and enjoying the books, but if they were the sole MCs? I wouldn't read their stories.

    I guess MAYBE if there was enough actual remorse? MAYBE I'd be able to sympathize with the character, at least a little? I don't know - it would have to be a hell of a lot of remorse.
     
  9. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    Yeah, I'd prefer something else too, but since the OP hasn't published this yet, it's possible he'll change his mind about the characters...

    But still, if it was something the MC actually likes -- raping -- it'd still fit. He'd do it for his own sick entertainment. Fair enough.

    It's a good thing we aren't forced to read fiction we don't like, then. ;)

    I don't think I could. If you've raped someone, whatever the reason, that's it for me, but even if I didn't sympathize, I could read the novel if it was well written and otherwise interesting, gave me food for thought etc.
     
  10. bossfearless

    bossfearless Active Member

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    No one is forcing anyone to accept rape or forgive rapists or anything else. The only thing the OP is asking is whether or not a guy might rape a girl in that one scenario. And yes, he might do it if he were that sort of guy in that sort of head space. Don't like it? Don't read it.
     
  11. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    No one's claiming they're being forced to do anything - are they?

    And, no, I disagree that all the OP is asking is whether a man might rape a woman in the scenario he gave. He wrote, "I don't know. Part of me feels that it's gratuitous at that point, but another part feels like it makes sense."

    "Gratuitous" isn't an interpretation of whether a human being might do something. It's a determination of how the fictional depiction of the act would be received. If he wants to know my opinion? I think it would be gratuitous. It's not a question of whether a certain man might rape someone - that question has been answered in the affirmative many, many times. It's a question of whether a depiction of the rape should be included in a fictional work.
     
  12. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    I don't get the "gratuitous" part of the question: if you do it in a gratuitous way, it will be gratuitous. If you provide enough proper motives, follow through with the consequences, and in every way treat the subject of rape with the severity and consideration it requires to not be gratuitous, it won't be gratuitous.

    Almost anything can be made gratuitous, i.e. written badly, just like almost anything can be written well, it's a matter of how it's executed.

    As for the OT: I would never sympathize with a rapist, no matter what motives they have, how much they repent etc. If someone rapes, all I'd be willing to extend to them is a fist in the face (if they're male, that is; that double standard I haven't ditched and likely never will, but I'd despise a female rapist just the same because I don't believe "good rape" exists), even if I didn't know the victim.
     
  13. Gigi_GNR

    Gigi_GNR Guys, come on. WAFFLE-O. Contributor

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    Not only is rape a really tired trope, it's also something that's grossly horrific and not something that should be justified, even in a revenge story. There's ways to write a revenge plot without including a totally unnecessary rape scene.
     
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  14. SuperVenom

    SuperVenom Senior Member

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    If that's what the character has been written to be like... where u have eluded to an ability to such actions then yes... but if he was written differently it can be an uncomfortable change.
     
  15. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    I like the occasional anti-heroes going on revenge quest plots, but rape? Er...no. Just no. I have a hard time finding a way to sympathize with someone who uses rape as revenge. I don't care how horribly abused/tortured this person was in the past, it doesn't excuse rape.

    If you're trying to get the audience to see something in him that's worth saving, that's worth redeeming him, then rape is the last thing you need to write about. No amount of motivation or 'Oh God, I'm so sorry I did that! I am tortured by my own misdeeds, can you tell how guilty I look??' from him would make me want to forgive him. I'd be rooting for everyone opposing him. Yes, even the antagonist of the story.

    Of course, if this is intentional and you're trying to make him unforgiveable to prove a point (as in not everyone can be redeemed), then that's something else. I'd still hate him, though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    You know what part of the problem is? (Sorry, this just came to me!)

    I can accept that for the victim, rape might be just another form of torture. Would I rather be raped or be repeatedly waterboarded and then sliced on... I don't know. They're both horrific.

    But the thing about rape is that the perpetrator is sexually aroused while it's happening. I think that's what makes it so impossible for me to imagine a rapist being redeemed. He didn't just cause a lot of pain and suffering, he was turned on while it was happening. To me that says something about him as a character. Something not-at-all good.
     
  17. exoticfabric

    exoticfabric Member

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    You could demonstrate his irrationality by killing her as pure revenge.

    Then, you have the opportunity to show how he regrets not hurting her more - such as by raping her - providing readers with an insight into his mind. He is brutal and not only does he not regret this, he wishes he had gone further. If done right, this would decrease the grimness of the novel as a whole while simultaneously strengthening characterisation, which is what you seem to desire.
     
  18. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    While disturbing, not terribly far-fetched. There's loads of research done on aggression and sexual arousal, and it's been suggested they are interconnected. Could someone go overboard if the circumstances were right, so to speak? E.g. the stress of war turns men (and women, I guess) into monsters. They do things they never imagined they would do, and I'm not just talking about men raping the women of the enemy as a symbol of conquest, but also soldiers raping other soldiers.

    I've also been thinking this over...
    So basically, if the circumstances are fucked up enough, if there's enough stress, someone who thought they didn't have it in them, might still stray. While I cannot sympathize with a rapist per se, I've not been in a warzone, as a combatant nor as a civilian, so if that kind of stress could turn a regular joe into a monster, I might actually feel a shred of pity.

    Can't say if I'd consider this situation as stressful. Suppose it'd depend on how it's written.
     

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