I think the thing with personal preferences points out the problem with trying to eradicate sexism or racism or any other kind of 'ism' - it's not really possible. We can enforce laws that prevent discrimination, but we can't really force people to change their mindset. It can happen through personal interactions - but if it's a positive interaction, people may only think that person was 'an exception'; if it's a negative interaction, it 'proves' their beliefs. People have a right to their likes and dislikes, beliefs or non-beliefs - as long as they don't try to prevent others from enjoying their rights and freedoms, I can live with it. (I may argue with them, but it's with the acceptance that my words probably won't change their minds.)
Obviously I think women should have the choice to live how they want to -- whether it's being a single-by-choice childfree CEO or a stay-at-home wife and mom of 10 kids -- without being given crap by society. This isn't the "being PC" answer, it's how I feel. However, I think that these days, the word "feminism" should maybe be replaced by "genderism" or something - the notion that everyone, whether you are a male or a female, should have the same freedom to choose their lifestyle. For example, while women generally don't get looked down on for choosing one type of life over the other, men still face pressures to be "manly," etc. I personally don't want kids, but IF i ever did have them someday, it would ONLY be if the guy was willing to be a stay-at-home dad -- or we could both work, but he'd have to agree to be the main caregiver. I'm not one of those people who judge stay-at-home-motherhood (people who do judge that are awful), but I do know very strongly that it's NOT for me. My mom was one, and while she was happy, I always knew I wouldn't be happy if my life were like hers. I see my home as a "crash pad," not as a place I want my life to center around. While the stay-at-home dad thing is becoming far more common, many guys are still pressured by society if they want to stay home with kids, OR if they're gay, or if they happen to be the one to do more domestic things, or if their wife makes more money than they do, etc. Society pressuring people into gender roles hurts men just as much as it hurt women. I'd like to see a promotion of equality that focused on BOTH genders, and promotes each individual or each couple doing what works best for them. Everything I see someone say something like "But all women should be the nurturers and all men should be the protectors, it's what God/nature intended," it makes my blood boil. I'm a woman and the absolute last thing I want it to be taken care of. Again, I value my freedom and independence and autonomy above all else.
Actually, that's what true feminism is all about - that individuals should not be bound in their life choices by societal or historical boundaries. Unfortunately, it got a bad name because of extremists - which seems to be the same story no matter what movement one looks at, frankly.
for the record, i was a 'stay-at-home wife and mother' for most of 36 years, while having and raising my 7 children, the first 5 of which i gave birth to in less than 5 years... i was a 'working [outside the home] wife and mother' for 2-3 of those years, with 5 kids; a 'single working [outside the home] mother' for 3 years, while on welfare with 5 kids and no child support or alimony; and a 'single stay-at-home while working at home mom' for 13 years, while raising the last 2 of my 7... in my 10 stay-home-mom years, with my 'only' work consisting of carrying, giving birth to, feeding, caring for and raising the first 5, i was also cleaning house with no help; helping my first husband with his work [i wrote specs and did take-offs for his architectural plans]; designing, sewing, and altering clothes for paying clients, to keep food on the table; walking to the market for groceries, since i'd had no time to get a driver's license and we only had one car; making all the dresses for my 4 daughters and most of my own clothing, shirts and bathrobes for husband and son; making almost all of the christmas presents for my kids, husband, parents and 3 sisters for over 10 years; fending off a constant flow of overdue bill/rent collectors; managing apartment complexes for reduced rent and working outside the home as a cocktail waitress when husband was out of work [most of the time]... in my single working mom years i was a casino change girl, ran doctor's office, bartended and cocktail waitressed... in my 'single mom stay at home/work at home' years, i ran a boarding house, renting out all the rooms we didn't use; ran a writing consultant business; was a free-lance editor, writer and columnist for magazines and newspapers; and wrote my own work, trying to make a living as a writer, while trying to rein in an out of control older teenaged daughter; schlepping her to her riding lessons and competions and schlepping the youngest to her ballet classes and performances... all the while doing paralegal work for my attorneys for a divorce from my multi-millionaire second husband and then on the constant lawsuits he kept bringing against me to get out of paying the agreed upon child support and alimony, by threatening to obtain custody of my youngest... so, there you have the history of one of those lazy, tv-watching, stay-at-home, uninteresting, tiresome, moms, rafiki... think you could be interesting and not tired/tiresome while doing even 1/10 of all that?
It took me a while to get through this thread but I'm glad I did. It's refreshing to see more intelligent responses than ignorant ones. On other forums when a subject like this comes up, that's often not the case. My short answer to the original question is this. Anyone who wants to work should be able work. Anyone who does not want to work should be allowed to not work. Gender should be irrelevant to the actual question in my opinion. Sadly it's not. Also we don't live in an ideal world, so many people who are desperate to make a living can't and many people who want to stay home and care for their families can't. A side point: I am a man and I recently quit my job. My friends, male and female, despite trying to "help" me find work have made it clear that it is somehow "wrong", "wasteful" and "lazy" of me to be not working. Yet my mother hasn't worked in twenty years and no one has ever given her a hard time about it. Interestingly no one seems to be willing to take my circumstances into consideration. I'm a man, I'm supposed to work. That's the thinking. The reality is I'm not healthy myself, yet I'm taking care of my parents who are now both disabled, Mom's one remaining kidney is failing and Dad just had a heart attack. Also I have money. Not much but enough to buy me a few months of getting healthy and getting my life in order before I have to bring in an income again. Yet none of that seems to matter to anyone I meet. "Oh, you don't have a job yet? Isn't that terrible. You should be working!" My point, returning to the topic is this: It amazes me how people feel the need to impose their values on others. If a woman wants to work secularly or work at home or not, that's her business. The rest of us don't have a say. Period.
Exactly! It makes me sad to hear anyone say "I'm not a feminist...", when they're obviously referring to the awful, incorrect definition that seems to have gotten stuck in so many people's heads. Happily there have been people 'reclaiming' the word recently but there's a way to go yet- I'd highly recommend Caitlin Moran's How to be a Woman for anyone interested in a brilliant and very funny view on modern feminism. As for the whole issue of women working/not working, to me like many others it shouldn't be a gender issue at all, it depends entirely on the individual/couple and as long as those directly involved in a situation are happy it's nobody else's business. I will admit I find the concept of the stay at home spouse (not parent, that's completely different to me) odd, but I certainly wouldn't look down on a couple for making that choice - different strokes.
I know that feminism is about equal rights for all, and that women should have the same options and treatment as men, not about promoting women above men. However, when I made the comment about how "feminism" should evolve into "genderism," I meant that the focus isn't on just women anymore. Feminism is about WOMEN being equal to men, because historically, it's always the women being pressured into certain roles. Now, women seem to have more freedom than men in that regard. No one -- except blatant sexists and fundamentalists, which are pretty rare in overall modern society -- actively campaigns for women to drop their ambitions, get barefoot and go back to the kitchen. Men, however, are the ones still facing societal pressure to fit roles. For example, little girls can be either princessey or tomboyish, but little boys are often discouraged from playing "feminine" toys and instead pressured to be "tough." Men such as my boyfriend, who have strong domestic/nurturing tendencies and want to be stay-at-home dads, are looked upon oddly by a large part of society, while women who choose to be childfree or career-driven no longer [generally] face this type of judgment. I know feminism is about equality rather than looking down on men, but it specifically addresses women's needs. Now, I think we need a movement that allows men to be free of gender-role-related pressure, too.
If it's assumed that a father shouldn't be the primary caregiver for his children, isn't that an assumption that the mother should have that role? Often in addition to her full-time job, which is what many career-driven women are finding, unlike career-driven men? If feminism had really succeeded it would be considered perfectly acceptable for a man to stay at home with his kids. I'm not really disagreeing with you here by the way, I think what you see as genderism I see as feminism so it's just semantics, I just think that if there's a pressure on either gender not to do something, that inevitably puts a pressure on the other gender to do that thing, so nobody is free and nobody wins. I'm totally with you on the children's toys/play thing- I'm not fond of princessy stuff for anyone, but the fear of letting boys play with dolls etc is really silly in my opinion. And when my husband and I hopefully have kids someday soon, he will certainly be the primary caregiver- I'd love to be a mother but I am a useless nurturer!
I agree with everyone. I don't think it's anyone's business what a man OR woman chooses to do with his/her time. I also agree that the gender roles are archaic and am frustrated with the intolerance that comes with straying from the flock. A close guy friend of mine got laid off last September. Before that, he had what most people considered a good life. Great job, nice home, girlfriend, kid, car, etc. Despite being laid off he was still okay. He is a compulsive saver (always has been) and his girlfriend also made really good money. In Hawaii's crappy job market, he had a hard time finding a job, but he WAS looking. By November, his girlfriend's family finally freaked out and his (now ex) girlfriend left him. Why? Because he "couldn't provide, was a lousy father/boyfriend, was lazy, was mooching off his girlfriend" and his ex's parents and brothers didn't like it (understatement of the century, they were livid). His ex had no problem with it until the family pressure came down on her. Needless to say the example above is extreme but it's a true story. What's funny about it, is that his ex's mom was laid off two years ago and no one's given her any crap about not even looking for a job. How is any of that fair? It's not, but the point is you guys are right. People are even harder on men who don't "work" than women.
Many interesting posts here. I think Mallory and TDFuhringer make some valid points. Lots of double-standards about, still. JC, about your deleted post... I didn't mean to make this 'political', as such. Such sterotyping is bad etc. I meant solely that people have their preferences in re relationships, what they look for and like or prefer in a partner. They'll go with that. Doesn't mean there has to be discrimination or hate involved.
I do agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion and of course personal preference. What I didn't agree with was his intolerance and prejudice towards a select group of women. Maybe that's not on par with actual sexism/racism/whatever-ism but it doesn't make it less wrong. I don't think people should make excuses or defend such blatant prejudice. If he had just said "I prefer my wife to work" then fine, that's his opinion and I would've moved on. It's the fact that he made all the other derogatory remarks that made his comment so inexcusable. That's all I was trying to say.
This a very, very good point. By the way, I'm in the same type of relationship as you. If my boyfriend and I were to ultimately marry and have kids, he'd be the primary caregiver as well. He's a teacher and used to working with kids for 8+ hours a day, so this is his thing. If I weren't with such a person, I wouldn't be open to having kids. You bring up a great point about how the societal pressure on men also translates into an unspoken societal pressure on women (i.e. the idea that if a man can't stay home to raise kids, the woman must do it). I hadn't thought of it that way at all. Plus rep to you.
Reading and listening to such treatment to Women i have to give my statements my all by all means. I totally agree with you, im a guy, and i think Women's rights should be more implemented and more noticed by the common man. If i had lived back in those earlier periods, i would try to be as equal as possible to my wife. Women should not be considered different from Men. In fact, Women go through far more then us guys do, in my opinion Women s rights should be a no-brainier concept to add on to. My hatred for Middle Eastern societies is mainly because of Religion-based government and the cruel treatment towards women. Hopefully im not the only guy around here who fully supports Women's rights. I mean, you got to respect the Women
I'd argue that feminism got a bad name not because of extremist feminists, but because of people who badly want to undermine women and who therefore dig up and publicize every extreme case they can find or make up. Tying the word to these dredged-up evils keeps women afraid to claim the word, afraid to support one another, afraid to stand up for themselves, for fear of being called a (gasp) feminist if they do so. So I say, take the word back. I'm a feminist. ChickenFreak
Amen, Chicken Freak! I've seen a trend in society lately that bothers me. It seems there's large faction that wants to set feminism back. I'm all for women who choose to be SAHMs asserting that they're just as empowered as career-having women, but I've noticed some people who seem to think that ALL women should stay at home, very much in a "women belong in the home and they should go back to the kitchen and start having more kids" mindset. I've come across a small handful of women who believe that way, but every guy I've met is cool with women's progress and wants their female partners to be equal.
I haven't read all the responses so forgive me if I repeat someone elses words. Men and women are not equal but they have equal worth. My wife is the person I look up to and respect more than anyone in the world. She is both my best friend and my rock. In a partnership, each brings to the table what they can. I was the primary caregiver for our girls and I do all the cooking. My wife has other talents, not the least of which is that she makes me want to be a better man. She can work or stay home if she likes (right now she is continuing her education) and I could do the same if I would like. We decide whose need or desire is stronger and we work together to make that dream come true.
Well, having gone through the whole feminist movement I'd have to say it was the extremists who caused the problems (and still do, frankly - they aren't called femi-nazis for nothing). I mean, there were and are a lot of angry women in the movement. But I've never denied being a feminist or stating such. And it's been enlightening for people who are otherwise... appalled? that I could be a feminist, because then I get to explain to them what it really means.
^ I was going to say. There were (are?) plenty of nutjobs about. As in any group. Anyway, I don't feel a need to label myself. No matter the intentions, the term strikes me as being exclusionary. Oh, and I stand up for myself just fine.
