I don't think it's useful to degenerate into simply name a fat actor. Kevin Smith is one who is current, and who is fatter than most of the people who were fat years ago. The fact remains that we're getting fatter. A couple years ago, Bill Maher showed a picture from, I believe, an early 20th Century circus or "freak show" and the man who they were touting as something akin to the "World's Fattest Man" was nowhere near what even typical "fat" people look like today. Over time, what has been considered "fat" has expanded -- merely fat now includes a lot of people who are extremely, morbidly obese. But, back to the original question -- there have been times when I have been in very good shape, working out a lot, and times when I have not been in very good shape. I have noticed a definite difference (a slight difference, but definitely noticeable) in how people in general react to me and treat me. They're much nicer and friendlier when I'm in good shape. As far as people who are in shape flaunting their bodies, I don't really have a problem with it (especially in appropriate contexts, such as at the beach). What I dislike more are people who are way out of shape, or outright fat who nevertheless choose to wear tiny bikinis that flaunt their fat. My position is that you can be fat, but don't flaunt it -- wear appropriate attire. Not skin tight belly shirts or spandex that fits into the fat grooves. I'm not in great shape right now, and I don't wear bikinis. But I don't begrudge someone who has worked hard for a good body to wear one.
I don't know Liz. This kind of attitude disturbs me. Sure, I'm not enamoured by the view of a very large girl in a tiny bikini either, but who are you or I to be telling her what she can and can not wear. As you know, there are many fat healthy people, and many skinny unhealthy people, as well as vice versa, so we have no right to go around moralising on those grounds (because it's none of our business and we may be completely wrong anyway). And and then, the beauty is in the eye of a beholder, so someone will like that very shape, and will admire it, as much as I may admire the body of a typical yoga instructor or a ballerina, for example. This kind of discrimination, based on 'I don't like to see it, so they should stop making me look at it' can be applied to black people, gay people,disabled people, anorexic people and pretty much everyone, actually, and we all know why all that was wrong. So why do we keep making the same bigoted statements regarding groups that haven't yet asserted their right to be spared this kind of psychological torture? It's a really curious need humans have, to put another down in order to make themselves feel better, I think.
Get ready for a feminist to tell you that they can wear whatever they want even if they are disgusting when they do because they should be proud of their body or something. I have nothing against fat people and I don't treat them any different but seriously there are some extremely obese people who think sunbathing almost naked in public is a good idea. I don't want to see that, and if my opinion is unpopular then so be it. Edit:seems I was late haha.
I haven't read anyone's answer so I could be reiterating - I don't think tolerance and acceptance should be considered one and the same in anything. I tolerate weight - do I accept it as acceptable - no. Tolerance for me is understanding and accepting people to make their own choices outside of my beliefs. Doesn't mean I have to agree with the choice. Does that make me a wild bigot? - no. I think people should strive to be healthy - but will everyone - no. And that's their choice. I don't know their background, their emotions, reasons for their eating habits I can't just look at a person and shake my head as though a little dieting and exercise will cure everything. Just like rape isn't about sex - weightgain isn't about being a glutton. My brother has battled his weight forever but I've never teased him about it. In fact I don't even look at him that way. But I've helped him numerous times and have successfully, with his cooperation, - helped him to lose weight. This is usually when I notice a significant gain or that his breathing is off. I know he feels better about his health and his appearance when he loses it. And he's not into the whole leave me alone, I'm happy as I am - big is beautiful routine. Nor, does he strive to be Hugh Jackman - he just wants to find a comfortable healthy weight. I'm not really concerned about how people look only behavior. I think the media/movies/advertising are to blame for weight intolerance. If stars weren't so polished, if more average people were picked and not for comical reasons - the slobby husband - fat = lazy, than people would feel more comfortable with change. Lets put it this way - an overweight woman could look at Angelina Jolie and think OMG I'll never look like her even if I lost sixty pounds, why bother but if Roseanne Barr loses weight than she can feel inspired to lose it too.
Smith is not an actor, though. He's a writer and director who simply makes occasional appearances in his own movies. And why must you traumatize me after I watched one of his abortions last night? Perhaps, but my point was that your Hollywood and sports examples hurt your argument more than support it. Look, I know we will never convince one another when it comes to politics, but there are surely better sources of information than a stand-up comedian doing a talk show version of his act, right? Even if he agrees with most of your political views? Showing pictures from individuals in very specific parts of society is not a real argument. Using that line of logic, I can prove to you that we have gotten far skinnier. How? Well, check out the height and weight of Miss America from around the same time frame versus today; In the 20s, four of the winners (one repeated) were 5'6" and between 130 and 138 pounds, despite being only 16-19 years old. The first adult winner, Rose Coyle, looked like this; http://api.ning.com/files/P2aAW2r-2waf2Tko8l3eTvJC9xyLik0s4YwB7FfrYOektto6I8dzV9W7a96HpbeBIOStaZLkhMnWQ8bjdMQcMHf2*S5gmlqb/1936missammainb.jpg In more modern times, winners are 5'6" (the mean height of winners) and about 115 pounds. Clearly then, we have gotten skinnier! Of course this is a ludicrous argument, but so is the Maher one you cited. In reality, the variance in body type has gone up. You see a much wider range of heights and weights nowadays than you did a century ago. Average weight has gone up, too, but so has the average human height and amount of muscle mass. Has body fat percentage increased at a substantial rate? That's a far more difficult question, and it requires a careful study, not random pop culture examples. I agree with this to an extent. I always find these types of posts strange. I mentioned in my first post my girlfriend's weight, and yet, I still mostly agree with liz's point. Hell, my girlfriend would agree with her point, too! Yet, here we have jazzabel offended on our behalf. Why?!
[MENTION=54840]IronPalm[/MENTION]: I am neither offended nor eager to synchronise my opinion with 'everybody' (by which you basically mean you and those who agree with you, which most definitely isn't 'everybody'). I have created my opinion in a fully informed fashion, why are you offended by it enough to launch an ad hominem attack on me, yet again? Stop the bullying, it has no place in an intelligent debate.
Haha. I doubt any sane person would consider my short, factual reply above "bullying", but they might have a different opinion of your posts.
This thread is beginning to veer into its inevitable bickering phase. It either gets back on topic or it's done.
How is it discriminatin becuse someone does not want to see ugly? Are we bigoted becuse we don't want to see land whales in speedos? How is that psychological torture at all? Unlike most of the examples their, a lot of choice goes into being obese. It's like PDA it can be subtle and ok, but as soon as its not modest it's a quick trip into the ugly and disgusting.
Sometimes. Other times not. But in either case, you're correct that it can't be compared to racial discrimination. (Which is almost becoming a Godwin's Law of its own with Internet discussions) Indeed, at some point, one has to draw the line. Whether that's severely overweight people showing a ton of skin, or people walking around completely nude while smeared in feces ("who are you to enforce your judgmental standards on them?!"), everyone has a limit. On an amusing note, I will admit to often being guilty of violating this propriety myself with my PDA. But I recognize the need for standards, even if I occasionally break them.
Now, I am not an art expert; I am only basing my opinion on what I have been exposed to. While there are exceptions, most art and sculpture of the male form depicts very healthy, athletic physiques. Less in shape, wider hipped, decently padded women have been extremely popular in art as well, but rarely is "obese" the popular figure (except for that happy fat guy in the east). For millennia the healthier physique seems to dominate art and I would dare equate that to a popular consensus that fit is preferable.
Can't believe I'm siding with Jazzabel on this one, but here goes. I don't think it's anymore offensive for an obese person to dress scantily than it is for a hot bod. Sightly vs unsightly is just one thing to consider. Someone who dresses to show off is displaying vanity, not an attractive quality. I believe that most people see something in the mirror which is not really there, and, in many cases, people convince themselves they're better looking than they really are. People are an egotistical bunch, and rather than admiring the skinny girl in the spandex, they're just going to be annoyed. People don't want to know there's someone in the room hotter than them, that there's a brighter star in the universe. Maybe people think, "why is that fatty dressing like that? Who does she think she is?". Well, let's say your a normal physique, so you decide to put on something cute, and then a model walks by, gives you the up and up, and thinks "why is that fatty dressing like that? Who does she think she is?" We live in a world where people are constantly comparing and competing with one another. If someone said, "Yeah, I'm pretty damn attractive," I imagine most people would find that very unappealing, and instantly, their impression of that person would drop. Dressing like you're hot stuff (there are few exceptions like the gym and the beach) is making a statement , and unless you truly look like you've descended from heaven, someone out there is going to be judging you. That's why we have words like "skank" for girls, or "douche bag" for guys. My point is, people who dress scantily, regardless of how you look, can be seen as offensive. So dress down at your own risk.
I don't find overweight people dressing in wrong clothing offensive - I feel bad that they can't technically pull off something that others effortlessly wear without it looking unflattering. A lot of people have bad taste in clothes and it doesn't help that certain styles don't suit everyone. But what can you do? - everyone wants to be in. When sweat pants reading Juicy came out everyone with a bottom like an apple made the style sexy - but not everyone's got an apple bottom. If the media wouldn't push a one-style, one-look, one-mentality to aspire to then you wouldn't get overweight people squeezing into styles that just barely suit fit people. People can get offened but they're really creating part of the problem - we're a society that is quickly trying to erase every visable flaw - buck teeth - braces, yellow teeth - whiten them, small boobs- get bigger ones, short hair - tie on longer strands, afro curls - straighten them, feet that don't fit into pointy shoes - snip off a couple toes, too much hair - rip it out, burn it off, zap it into extinction, acne - take pills that could possibly induce suicidal tendencies, skinny lips - fat injections, big nose - snip some off - and if all else fails when you do take a picture of your publicly-offensive-less-than-perfect face airbrush it.
I agree. I see heavy people in too small clothes almost every day, especially now that it's summer, and I always have the option to look away (tbh, my gaze just kinda slides by, I don't really ogle at random people, heh). I think it's great we have the freedom to dress like we want, even if it's uncomfortable or socially "unacceptable" (like heftier ladies in bikini tops while shopping groceries). Besides, there are always fatkinis! This is horrible, but so true (except the feet part. Wtf?). A lot of these things I don't really even perceive as flaws, rather, those lips that look like glued-on leeches or noses that disrupt the symmetry of the face -- those look worse to my eye! And the sad thing is that the way you look can make it or break it e.g. in working life, especially for women (don't get me started on to what lengths some women in Japan and China can go to get a job... ethnic makeovers...) This reminded me, I find it somewhat disturbing that the beauty ideal for men is muscular and healthy while for women it still is very skinny with something plastic on them, be it boobs or new lips or cheek implants, in which case the chance for health issues can be bigger than with men (yes, yes, steroids bad, over-training bad, but still!) Of course men resort to palstic surgery too, but it looks to me like the ideal male body is largely healthier and "better" in comparison to the ideal female body. EDIT: to me this difference is quite visible between men's and women's fitness competitions: women 1 women 2 men 1 men 2 Basically you're supposed to be healthy and sporty and stuff, but to me those girls look pretty scary-skinny, apart from the thighs (granted. you gotta get rid of a lot of fat for the competition, but some of them maintain that look year-round). Near zero-fat is just not very healthy for women in general...
[MENTION=53403]KaTrian[/MENTION]: People's preference in looks can be influenced by so many things. Since I worked in palliative care, whenever I see a really skinny person, a wonder if they are ill. Chubby people for me mean 'at least they probably don't have cancer'. Warped thoughts, I know, I just wanted to demonstrate how thought processes can impact visual preference. Pierce Brosnan watched his first wife die of cancer. His second wife is definitely quit overweight, but I understand why he now prefers that body shape. People are different.
[MENTION=35110]jazzabel[/MENTION] : True. I try not to judge (and often fail), but I for one have distaste for plastic surgeries done to meet some expectations society piles on you. But as with everything, people have the right to do whatever they want to their bodies. Only when it starts to harm others, I'd pull the plug. And like those bodybuilders, hell, I guess I'd like to show around a body I'd worked hard for too. Maybe. Well, maybe not.
[MENTION=35652]123456789[/MENTION]: She was quite fit, I wouldn't say she was skinny I wouldn't be surprised if she relaxed when she realised he wasn't fussed about it. I saw so many photos of them, she so chubby, most women wouldn't dare don a bikini if they looked like her, and he, as gorgeous as he is, totally in love with her. It was really nice to see, for a change. Same goes for Angelina and Brad, opposite extreme, but the attraction is still there despite everything. [MENTION=53403]KaTrian[/MENTION]: With body builders (the huge male ones) all I can think about is shrunken testicles from anabolic steroids...
It's interesting that a new study shows that having plastic surgery doesn't really change how attractive you are. Seems like a lot of people should get their money back.
Ha! Speaking of this, David Hasselhoff has been on that Shark After Dark show on Shark Week and the guy looks... alarming.
If the majority of people vote that burnt umber is their favorite color, would it not be fair to say that burnt umber is the most popular color. Nobody is saying that periwinkle is bad and you can't wear it.* However, popular opinion would be in favor of something more umber-ish. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that a certain male or female physique is more popular (more accepted?) if it fits that formula. Women have become more Barbie Dollish and bodybuilders have bulked up, but I think it is an extreme form of what has been the more popular/ desirable form in western cultures for a long time. *just not with those shoes
I would like to address some of the considerations underlying my stated opinions on this thread. First, I would never actually *say* to the person that he or she really should not be wearing what they are wearing. I would not advocate any sort of person-specific shaming or teasing. I would oppose any sort of government mandate or law that someone could not wear what they wanted. But this thread is partially about what we think on this issue. The way we dress is something that is entirely within our control, unlike a lot of aspects of our physical appearance. How fat we are is sometimes partially outside our control, but it is also, to a large extent, within it. I have seen plenty of overweight people on the beach who wear what I consider "regular" bathing suits -- that is, for women, more or less the basic one piece suit that women and girls have worn for at least the last 40 or so years. (For men, this would be basic swim trunks, which is what the majority of men seem to wear, anyway.) When I see them I don't really give them much thought. But, when I see very overweight people wearing tiny suits that are really designed for people who are super in-shape (which excludes me, BTW), I do think, "wow, he/she really should not be wearing that." And they are wearing it partly to make a statement and/or to provoke a reaction, which is the same reason that in-shape people would wear it. Now, it is perfectly within this person's rights to be of the attitude "F*ck Liz. I don't give a rat's tuchus about what she thinks." And this person certainly can go on wearing whatever he or she wants, and isn't even going to hear anything from me about it. But, I do have the right to think it. And since this thread is, again, about what we *think,* I will disclose that I do think this. I'm not a proponent of belittling someone or making them feel bad for their physical appearance. It's really none of our business. However, I do think it is possible to go too far in providing an overall attitude that no matter how obese you get, even if you can no longer walk under your own power and need to be cut out of your house if you need to go to a hospital, then that is just fine. We really should be promoting healthy lifestyles and food choices, and can appreciate physiques of those who do eat a very healthy diet and are active. Obviously, there are people who have health conditions that interfere with this, and of course those people should be treated with dignity and respect, and really we should just be concerned with their happiness and ability to lead productive lives. Models and beauty contestants are not good examples of ideal body images, either. Many of them are too thin and are unhealthy on the other end of the scale. So comparing the sizes of Miss Americas over the years really doesn't say anything about our growing obesity epidemic. Iron, I know you may not like Bill Maher, and may disagree with much of what he has to say, but one of his issues is our food system and the obesity problem. Really, this should not be a political issue at all. I don't understand why anyone would be against promoting healthy lifestyles. But it was very striking to see him show this genuine picture/advertisement of someone from the early part of the last century that was advertising that he was so unbelievably fat that you had to see him to believe it. There just isn't a question that people are getting fatter. Part of this is from our food processing and all the food additives, and part of it is from the way we've constructed our towns that really discourage or prohibit walking as a viable transportation mode. Addressing the issue will require a multi-faceted approach. But simply denying it isn't going to help at all.
Completely agree. Completely agree again. Of course. I noted as much. Neither do the size of carnival freaks, especially in a time where being over 6' and 200 pounds was extraordinarily large. I actually agree with him on one major political issue, and appropriately enough, it's one that has gotten him death threats from fellow liberals. This is very much an open question. People are bigger nowadays, period. They're much taller than they were 100 years ago, and have greater muscle mass as well as greater fat mass. The question of whether the average body fat percentage has gone up is very much an open question. I would love to see an actual study or statistic cited here, because I don't consider it "obvious" at all.
[MENTION=54840]IronPalm[/MENTION] - I don't think the fact that we're more overweight is in question. Now, one can argue as to the reasons we are heavier. Oddly enough, it turns out that animals in proximity to humans are also getting fatter. It's easy to say, 'Oh, people eat too much garbage food.' but perhaps there are deeper underlying issues.
So you should have no problem citing a study/statistic that shows an increase in average body fat percentages, right?
