So, theme, what is it?

I confess, I'm not great at spotting them either. But then, I don't concern myself with it so much. Spotting themes I leave to English teachers and critics.

 

I agree. Spotting them is deconstruction, which is not why most of us read (when reading for pleasure, at least).

But when the author has taken time to think about it during the writing, I think it makes the reading experience more enjoyable — the emotional roller-coaster is more satisfying.

You don't think about the engine when you're taking a road trip, but the better the car runs, the more you can relax and enjoy the scenery.

 

You might also say, your theme (like your outline or your log-line) is something to be ignored while writing.

 

I agree with you that meaning and analysis is imposed later by an audience, but I don't think that means an author can't also impose a theme during writing. I see theme as another element in a well composed story. If a reader comes along and imposes their own meaning later, that's fine, even desirable. But if the author has layered in a theme during the writing, the reader will have more opportunities to fashion their own as the author's intent becomes grist for the mill, so to speak, in the reader's mind (if the author has treated their theme with a light touch, the reader won't be aware of this process).

I guess this comes down to a question of definitions. I would consider story, plot, character, setting and theme to be five elements in any any well-composed story. But our definitions of those five elements may well differ (hence the four pages of discussion in this thread).

What I'm driving at is that there is the meaning imposed by the reader and the intent imposed by the author. I think they are two very different things, and it's not necessary for the reader to be consciously aware of the latter.

If the intent (the theme as conceived by the author) strikes some fundamental chord of human nature, the different meanings derived by readers will be richer, more diverse and more personal (isn't this the holy grail — when your story becomes everyone's story?).

 

Well I'm with you, @Tea@3. I write to entertain, not to teach readers something about themselves, or humanity, or whatever--or to make a point. I also don't think it's a mistake that I do it this way so... shrug.

 

I agree completely. You don't need to be a philosopher to have a theme. I think this is another misconception — that by talking about theme we are somehow elevating writers to some venerated position of wisdom. I don't buy that at all. I only ever write a story to entertain, but my stories still have a theme along the lines of @Sack-a-Doo!'s definition from earlier in this thread.

If you are in a minority, then I'm right there with you. I have no lofty goals. I just want to get published, tell a good yarn and make a buck if I can (sell the film rights, retire to the beach, etc, etc.). I just think that theme is an element that can't be ignored, even in that context.

But I'm more than happy to agree to disagree.

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Again, within the definition Sack-a-Doo! laid out, I don't think it's about teaching anybody anything, but rather (if we're talking about commercial fiction) telling a story that connects with the largest number of people.

 

His definition was "making a point,", wasn't it?

I don't think theme is about connecting with the largest number of people. I agree with Sack that it's about putting a point across, teaching something. I want people to connect to my characters but I don't want them to go away thinking "Wow, it's true, crime DOESN'T pay!" or whatever. Just "Wow, that was a good story. I'm glad she ended up happy."

I really, really don't think a theme is necessary for a good story.

 

I'ma say this then I'ma head out for a bite of lunch.

Can we all agree that Stallone's Rocky is chock full of themes?

But I'll wager you that theme didn't enter his mind once when he was banging on that typewriter over the three day marathon session when he wrote it.

I betcha, dollar to a donut.

 

I can't agree because I'd have to watch it first...

 

Nope. I almost exclusively watch horror. I have very little patience for movies whereas I can read books in any genre... it's odd.

 

Fair enough.

It is interesting though, that this question generates so much debate. I had no idea until @Wreybies mentioned it (see the OP).

 

Sorry for the double post. I was pushed for time before and now I'm tapping on my phone.

We disagree, @Tenderiser, about Sack's definition, but no worries, eh?

As for the bit I've quoted you on, I agree with you. I think the issue of theme is something for the writer to worry about (if they so choose), not the reader. I don't care if reader's think about my stories or not. But I do, like you, want readers to feel them ("oh, what a good story. I enjoyed that. Now, what's on the telly...").

 

I thought alien and aliens had strong themes of sexual violation. Like the robot shoving a magazine down the heroines throat. Or the name of the central computer they are trying to get to before the alien does, the womb. The face huggers are very rapey creatures and they impregnate you and force you to bear alien children by shoving a long tube down your throat. The aliens face design is very phallic, including its mouth. The story is basically about trying to avoid getting raped, eventually standing up to your attacker and beating them, and men are not safe from it. At the very end she faces the alien pretty much butt naked. While she's in this vulnerable state she defeats it, successfully getting away in the process. A woman confronting a rapist might have to do so in a similar and vulnerable form. Very strong visual choices I'd say. Also did the robot blood have to be so white and messy? There were definitely trying to get the theme across to males as well even though MC was a heroine.

 

When @Sack-a-Doo! mentions Aliens, I think it's his WIP to which is being made reference, not the universe of Xenomorphs and Engineers.

https://www.writingforums.org/threads/aliens-dont-bend-at-the-knees.146326/#post-1451382

 

Whoops. And here I thought there was a book based on the movies I wasn't aware of.


More to the OP's question. I think theme is something very intangible. It's something writers like to think they understand about their book but I don't think they always get their wish on the specifics. It's like modern art. The artist may have had some sort of intention with his work, or they might not have. That doesn't stop people from breathing way to much into it and coming up with depth and complexity where none was intended. Like a guy who recently left a pair of glasses on the ground of a museum and everyone thought it was art.



You have to have some pretty good foresight to completely understand the themes of your book. That's if people are interested enough to dissect it in the first place, which already means success on some level. Obviously well constructed themes have a place among literature, but it must be one of the hardest things to get down intentionally. And it is something which doesn't really reward you for intending a theme until after some measure of success.

 

Yup. I don't always type out the full title, but that's what I'm referring to.

 

Actually, there is... or I should say: are. Alan Dean Foster wrote them.

But in future, to lessen the confusion, I'll try to refer to my WIP as: ADBATK or Aliens DBATK.

 

I could go for a bit of that.

Exactly. Because if we ignore theme, it'll still be there and may be the exact opposite of what we'd like people to take away from our work.

Theme is, in my opinion, a necessary evil.

As an example of what can happen if theme isn't carefully controlled, look at the song, Helter Skelter by the Beatles. Paul didn't take control of his theme and ended up inspiring a madman to mass murder. You'll notice that after the whole Charles Manson thing, McCartney wrote almost exclusively sweetness and light, songs with love as a theme. Even when he strayed from that with songs like Band on the Run, there was no way any of those songs could be construed to inspire anything but good things. Even Give Ireland Back to the Irish wasn't a rallying cry for the Irish to rise up (and AFAIK, never did). It was a plea to the crown to give back their land.

Exactly. And most people connect with themes centred around getting along with others, doing one's best and not destroying the world in an effort to root out evil.

 

And that's where theme is so often misunderstood. Loftiness doesn't have to come into the mix. The theme can be as simple as: being nice to others leads to warm feelings. Nothing lofty there.

Or, to mirror some of what you were saying in your post, overthinking an art project leads to frustration.